Craig and I put on about 2200 miles Thursday-Sunday going to North Carolina. Anyway, I not only found it easy to scrap my boards, but I also did a lot of scraping of my tip-over protectors. What I found out is that the rear tip-over protectors hit first. If you keep trying to turn, it will lift weight off the rear wheel and the bike will slide out. It's a little scary so just don't try to turn the bike even more when the tip-over protectors are scraping. Fortunately, the scraped metal is on the bottom and not visible. It's good to know the limits of the bike. I also did a video of the Dragon which I'll post shortly.

sandman - 2008-05-20 6:53 AM Fergy how fast were you going? I've taken ramps at 65mph without touching down. your bike must be at about 120degree's.

I've scrapped on the on-ramp several times doing around 55-60 with no problem. I was even coming around one the other day and I though to myself, why ain't it scrapping and then I felt a nick, I was right at that line that probably a piece of paper wouldn't get between. Fergie, Thanks for letting us know about the tip overs, I dug in on the floor boards but not touched the tip overs yet, that I know. The only time I've laid a bike down, it was on my CB750 Custom in a hard left turn, hit a dip and the center stand arm hit and the rear tire kicked out. I've been skiddish since about a hard lean and scrap, except with the Vision. Now you tell me that I can do the same with it if I tried hard enough.....

Cool video too!

golfer - 2008-05-20 8:39 AM I hope ya'll are leaning hard enough into your turn. I have my shocks pumped up for 2 up all the time and prefer the stiffer ride...I am having a hard time scraping unless I actually try to...On my Kingpin I scraped every corner. My Harley Ultra was a scraping maniac...The Vision has WAY more ability than those bikes. Something sounds wrong, or you aren't leaning into your turn enough...My $.02

Let me correct something here... Leaning is the result of turning; not the cause of it. Leaning is a balance between the forces that would have you highside crash and the forces that would have you lowside crash. You can change your lean angle by changing the location of the center of gravity by leaning into the turn or shifting your weight to the inside of the turn. Doing so allows you have less lean angle for the same turn at the same speed. That's why sport bike riders lean to the inside of the turn. They want to go as fast as they can through the turn and shifting their weight allows them to maximize their speed while minimizing their lean angle in order to make the turn. The opposite would be to lean away from the turn and by doing so you would need more lean angle to balance the forces and thus more likely to scrape a board. A lot of riders think leaning away from the turn is more stable or allows them to make the turn. They're wrong. It feels better, maybe, because you feel more on top of the bike, but in reality the bike is having to lean even more into the turn than is needed and is more dangerous for the rider. A bike is turned only by turning the handlebars. At speeds above 15 MPH or so, you turn the handlebars left to go right and right to go left; countersteering. It is assumed by many that leaning turns the bike but that is incorrect. Leaning is simply balancing forces and nothing more. If your boards start to scrape, shift your weight to the inside of the turn and "push" the bike away from the turn and you'll notice the bike will stand more upright and the board will stop scraping and yet you maintain the same speed and turning radius.

VisionTex - 2008-05-20 9:14 AM Fergy - 2008-05-20 7:33 AM Scraping the tip-overs is a little frightening at first especially when the rear wheel lifts off the road a bit. Scraping floor boards is fun, scraping hard points can get you in a lot of trouble real fast. I enjoyed the video.

Light scraping of the fixed parts is one thing. Going into a turn too hot, scraping the fixed parts and not being able to turn more when needed is deadly. I've lifted weight off the rear wheel on a couple of different motorcycles. I have to admit that the Vision handled it the best but I choose not to do it on a regular basis.

varyder - 2008-05-20 9:20 AM Fergy, you're a wealth of information. To the best of my knowledge I'm leaning with the bike and I'm scrapping. I'm hitting the turn hard, and I'm going at least 10-15mph faster on the Vision, than I did with the GL1200. The Vision is much more stable and stays tracking where I want it without the "walk" I felt on the GL1200. I only say that "to the best of my knowledge" is that my head and shoulders is behind the windshield at the same angle as the bike. Of course, at that speed, I may only think I'm doing that and maybe I need to be video'ed to see if I'm doing what I think I'm doing. Huh?

The reason you can go faster is because the Vision will lean farther before scraping. To decrease your lean angle even more and go faster, you need to do more than just be behind the shield. When I'm going around a turn in an agressive fashion, let's say it's a left turn, my left butt cheek is hanging off the left side of the seat and my shoulders and head are way left of center. Take a look at this guy on a cruiser:

http://www.us129photos.com/images/previews/IMG_6470.jpg

He is shifting his weight. Now, you notice the sparks? Well, he's not shifting enough of his weight to get the lean angle more upright. So, he has a choice, let off the throttle a bit (but not too much) to slow his speed or he can lean even more into turn. Both options work. The first thought is leaning more on the side of the scraping peg is going to cause the peg to scrape more. Well, that assumption is ignoring the physics. When leaning into the turn, you moe the center of gravity and to compensate the bike stands more upright. It's counter-intuitive but it's true nonetheless. Because I'm the agressive type, I would lean even more into the turn and maintain and maybe even increase my speed. Now, notice this guy on a sport bike:

http://www.moonshinephoto.com/New%20image%20folder/IMG_1173-1%20copy.jpg

The more you throw your weight to the inside, the less lean angle is needed to make the turn at a specific speed and as such you're able to increase your speed around the turn. So, throw the butt cheek off the seat, shift your weight to the inside of the turn, push the bike away from you a bit, and look not through the shield but to the side of it. I look over the mirror that's on the inside of the turn. You'll notice you can go even faster through the same turn and your buddies behind you will wonder where you went!  

Where is the URL link to the video ???

 Thanks,

Tim 

varyder - 2008-05-20 9:33 AM I've only gone into one turn to hot on an unfamiliar road and the Vision stuck like glue and did not scrap. Normally, when I go in I'm not in the scrap mode, and as I'm in the turn I'll twist the throttle until I do. I've not  had any dig in, just a light scrap, but it is still is on a greater threshold than the GL1200. The only time I scrapped on the CB750 Custom laid me down.

As you increase throttle, throw your butt cheek off the seat toward the inside of the turn and put more weight on the inside floorboard. You'll feel the bike stand up more upright and you won't scrape unless you increase the throttle even more than you normally would. The more weight you throw to the inside of the turn the better and the faster you can make the same turn.

golfer - 2008-05-20 10:13 AM Fergy - 2008-05-20 10:05 AM Yes, like I said, lean into your turn more. And, it is not true that leaning cannot turn a bike at higher speeds. I can ride no handed and turn corners just by leaning. I hope you get your problem fixed!!!

Yes. I can too. But what happens when you just lean? Well, the bars turn a little in the countersteer direction. Try this. When on the bike and stopped, lean the bike a little left or right and notice the bars turn in the opposite direction. Part of the geometry of 2-wheeld vehicles, rake, and such causes this. Haven't you ever wondered why there's rake between the handlebars and the wheel? This is why so many riders think that turning is performed by leaning. It isn't. Take a look at this short article. It shows and interesting demonstration of how a bike turns: http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2007/10/09/motorcycle-countersteering-and-the-no-bs-bike/

golfer - 2008-05-20 10:13 AM  Yes, like I said, lean into your turn more. And, it is not true that leaning cannot turn a bike at higher speeds. I can ride no handed and turn corners just by leaning. I hope you get your problem fixed!!!

Oops! I messed up that post. Here it 'tis again...

Yes. I can too. But what happens when you just lean? Well, the bars turn a little in the countersteer direction. Try this. When on the bike and stopped, lean the bike a little left or right and notice the bars turn in the opposite direction. Part of the geometry of 2-wheeld vehicles, rake, and such causes this. Haven't you ever wondered why there's rake between the handlebars and the wheel? This is why so many riders think that turning is performed by leaning. It isn't. Take a look at this short article. It shows and interesting demonstration of how a bike turns: http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2007/10/09/motorcycle-countersteering-and-the-no-bs-bike/

Fergy,

Thanks much.  Also, nice pict of the wife unit !!!

Tim 

golfer - 2008-05-20 10:49 AM Hey Fergy, we are saying the same thing, lol...What I am trying to tell you is that you have one of two things happening with your Vision: You are not leaning enough "toward" the inside of the turn, that is to say, if you are turning right, you need to lean right, and need to push right on the right side of the handlebars. Trust me, I get the lean thing. As a matter of fact, when watching a sport bike race, they are so far off the inside of the bike, they drag themselves before the bike. Now, it is obvious you know how to ride. Which brings me to the second possibility... Your bike is broke. Or you need more air in your shocks. I only say this because I consider myself a pretty fast rider thru turns. And in my experience, the Vision corners extremely well. If yours is not, there is something wrong. But really, trust me when I tell you I know countersteering, lean geometry, left to go right, and all that mess. Almost forgot...When making a slow turn, we want to lean away from the inside. Therefore, leaning the bike further creates a smaller turning radius. U-turns and such, low speed maneuvers...

I didn't start this thread because I was asking for help, understanding, or because I thought my Vision was broken. I posted because I finally leaned this beast enough to scrape the rear tip-over protectors and was quite proud of myself. I too am a very aggressive rider. There's nothing wrong with my Vision or my understanding of how to turn a bike. The reason for replying to your post was because I felt your advice could be understood by some that turning is due to leaning and not due to steering. Whether or not you understand that makes no difference if the way you state it is ambiguous. I'm not sure where you thought I was saying anything was wrong with my bike or my understanding of how to turn a bike unless you weren't really reading the posts.

With regard to slow speeds, you are correct. You must counter-balance rather than counter-steer and you turn in the direction you want to turn. At slow speeds, the gyroscopic effects haven't taken over so counter-steering isn't necessary. The typical speed at which the gyroscopic effect starts to make a difference is over 12-15 MPH give or take. Then, counter-steering is needed to turn the bike.

The moral of the story is: You turn the bike by turning the handlebars. At slow speeds before the gyroscopic effects are involved, you turn in the direction you want to turn and you counter-balance to keep the bike from falling over. Once the gryoscopic effect takes over (15 MPH or so), you counter-steer or steer in the opposite direction you want to go. Shifting your weight at higher speeds only changes lean angle; not direction. Although leaning makes you feel like that causes the turn, it doesn't. Only turning the handlebars causes the turn.

How about a challenge? You follow me down the Tail of the Dragon. If I can still see you after 1 mile in my rearview mirrors, I'll pay you $1000. Otherwise, you'll pay me.

Outback101 - 2008-05-20 10:50 AM We found our way onto some great roads this weekend. No traffic, good visibilty several turns ahead, and a great surface for hanging it out. For a big bike the Vision rocks. More than a couple of times I caught myself putting out a knee and hanging to the inside of the turns. I'm thinking touring bike, I bought this because I could not behave on a sport bike. I had a way below average sport bike rider in front of me who said he was sorry for holding me up. My only complaint was his stickier tire and lack of a real fender feeding me some road occasionally. My VTX feels like a log with square wheels now. (Not really but you understand) I run the Vision with 40 in the rear shock because I am off and on two up. Scraping with the rear pumped up to 40 would be really haulin' the mail. I don't think I will ever get to the knubs on the side of the front tire. Congrats on having a safe and fast run on the "Dragon"

I completely agree. This bike rocks and handles like a sport bike. I'd kill myself on a sport bike and my wife-unit has told me I can't have one. This is pretty close to one albeit a 850 lb one. Still, for a big touring bike, this thing handles great, has tons of lean angle, and is rock solid at all times. I did get i little tank slapper on the Cherahala Skyway when I was just a tad bit agressive. I rode it out through the turn. The bike was very stable even though it was slapping me around a bit. I'm very impressed with the handling.

varyder - 2008-05-20 11:59 AM Man, these bikes now-a-day have gotten way to complicated. What happened to the time when all you had to do was lean....?

There was never such a time. Even bicycles use the same physics. Just because you don't realize you're doing it doesn't mean it's not happening. All 2-wheeled vehicles use the same physics and turn in the same ways (except for maybe those big wheel bikes of the early 1900s. I don't know if those are different or not.). Take a look at a bike sometime and notice the rake between the handlebars and the front wheel. It doesn't go straight down but at an angle. Try riding a bike or a mortorcycle at say 40 MPH in a straight line and then gently turn the handlebars and notice you go left when you turn right and vice versa. The reason I think it's important to know what's really going on is because it makes for a better rider. The riders courses talk about presing right to go right or pressing left to go left. I'm not sure why they don't just come out and say turn left to go right. Same thing but seems much clearer to me. I don't just press right to go right. I pull with my left hand and push with my right hand to go right and I push with my left hand and pull with my right hand to go left. It makes turning so much easier and instant when you realize what you're doing and that you don't have to have your weight shifted in order to turn. Weight shift only becomes important when you're close to scraping and then you need to lean inside to keep the bike more upright or slow down to keep from scraping in the first place.

golfer - 2008-05-20 12:46 PM Oh, and by the way, I will take you up on that bet! Unfortunately for you, I will be in a 2006 Dodge Viper just to make sure I win the bet.

Well, I just happen to have a 2006 Dodge Viper that I race. I'm willing to take you up on that bet too. Since you have a viper, do you do any of the Viper Days race events (http://www.viperdays.com)? You can check some of them out on my youtube at http://www.youtube.com/viperfergy. I'm doing Hallett in OK June 5-8. I also race in the Skip Barber race series in open wheel (Formula Dodge) and I'm a member of Motorsport Ranch (http://www.motorsportranch.com) where I track my car once or twice a month.

Breaker - 2008-05-20 12:55 PM Fergy's got it right on the physics and the gyroscope effect of the the motorcycle and how it actually turns. I think everybody in the thread is saying the same thing, just using different wording. I believe the MSC teaches the counter steering "press down on the right bar to go right - press down on the left to go left" for a couple of reasons. One, if a new rider thinks that grabbing the bars and turning them is how to corner and steer, they are setting themselves up for disaster at some point. They'll panic and give those babies a good twist. Secondly, if they believe they are leaning the bike to steer they once again are going to have problems. If they come into a corner hot leaning is not going to cut it. We are pushing (counter stering) even if we are not concious of the fact. The way to get out of a corner is to accelerate and push those bars - but that's very counter intuitive, especially for a new rider. David Hough writes some great books that I've come to read over and over. Proficient Motorcycling and More Proficient Motorcycling. Conter steering, delayed apexing on the corners, and general survival skills on the bike. Well worth the read if you get the chance.

I've been told that before by some of the instructors. Personally, I want to know what it is I'm doing and not only know what an instructor is willing to tell me to "protect me from myself." This is serious stuff and knowing what it is you're actually doing vs. hiding the fact in the hopes you don't kill yourself sounds liberal politics to me. Not you; MSF. There are rare but important moments when on a bike and knowing how to swerve is one of the most. It needs to be instantaneous and second nature. It is with me but I'm not sure about a lot of others. I've seen numerous accidents because of these kinds or problems and riders of 30 years still thinking that you turn a bike by leaning. Plus, if you just try turning gently while going down the road, you'll get the feel very quickly. It's actually hard to turn the wheel very far but a little goes a long way and knowing the feeling will save lives.

golfer - 2008-05-20 1:01 PM NO!!!!!!!! You have to be on your Vision!!!! I would be in my buddies Viper, lol... Now, when is this race? On a seperate note...I watched a special on some channel that had superbike vs. supercar on a closed track with twisties and straight aways...I assumed the bike would clean up, but the car edged it out every time. They said the advantage of the car is the braking, and the bike had the advantage of acceleration, and I thought they said the cornering was negligable...So, that is why you would need to be on the Vision, and me in a Viper. Because I know that the Vision is no super bike, but the Viper is darn close to a super car...

Not a fair contest. I already know I can go faster in my viper around corners than I can on my bike. Of course, you may suck as a driver in which case I would beat you anyway but I don't know that for sure so I'd prefer to keep like hardware. A car has an advantage in a number of ways. We have sportbikes at MSR as well as open wheel and sport bikes are fast but lose time in the corners and overall their times are slower than sports cars and sports cars are slower than open wheel. Just the way it is.

I'm ready when you are.

sorry for yanking chains. my hope is that all riders have many, many years of happy (s)miles on a bike. the destination is about the journey when riding. every rider, before riding, needs to  have a full understanding of what they are getting into. I have advised old men like myself who want to ride to get a small, used, but dependable bike and take a MSF MSC beginners before getting too deep. Ride it like you're a little old lady (no offense meant toward little old ladies) for about a year. Then if you still like riding, get the bike you want. When I started riding again after 20 years, I got a GL1200 and rode it for two years before getting the Vision. Every ride I am vigilent to all that is around me and will back off at the first sign of cager problems. I don't ride when I have a heavy load on my mind or if I'm not feeling well or medicated. That don't sound right, but I'm sure my wife would want to medicate me at times; I'm only speaking of OTC cold medicene or the such. Yes, I know it is counter-steer to turn the bike and not leaning. But leaning is the fun part and is the most prominent to the rider and the observer, so it is what we think we are doing to do what we do. Everybody, just know what you are doing when you ride. If you don't, get that way because we all want you to be around for a long, long time. And besides, none of us could stand the thought of a smashed up Vision...

golfer - 2008-05-20 2:13 PM I practice many avoidance techniques often. The one I really work on while just going along with nothing else going on is fixation. Probably my weaker skill. So I will see something that is not a hazard, but treat it as one. Like a manhole cover. I just try and lock in a path around the object instead of staring at the damn thing like is instinct with me. I have found myself hitting small roadkill because I will see them and stare at them. I realize hitting small game is not a problem, but when it is a larger object I will be screwed if I can't pull my eyes off it in time. Countersteering is another I practice most. My girlfriend gets pissed at me because I practice it with her on back. I tell her it is for her own good. The bike handles so much differently with a passenger. I like to practice my moves 2 up as well...

One of the most dangerous things on a bike is "target fixation". I've read a few articles on this and seen video's from riders who got caught up in it. It happens too many times in a right hand turn with traffic in the opposite direction lane. What ever you do don't look at that truck or car, look at where you want to go, your lane, around the corner. This may be argueably the biggest killer, other than intoxication or speed for condition.

This seems to be the hottest topic so far.

golfer - 2008-05-20 1:13 PM I have found myself hitting small roadkill because I will see them and stare at them. I realize hitting small game is not a problem

We should call you roadkiller or or varmit hunter instead of golfer.

varyder - 2008-05-20 1:26 PM This seems to be the hottest topic so far.

Let's start an oil thread. That seems to generate the most responses in the groups I belong to.

varyder - 2008-05-20 1:56 PM I hit an oil patch from an accident on a right turn about a month ago. The way I slipped around the corner, it had to be AMSOIL because it definetly didn't break me down, nor did I run hot.

Ok. Since you brought it up. What Amsoil are your running? I've heard good things about it and I'm due for an oil change. Do you run 20w50 or is there something special?

wrr1home - 2008-05-21 12:46 PM I changed mine to Amsoil 20w50w, before my trip this past weekend to Cherokee & Deals Gap. The wrench said that the clutch may slip using this oil. After around 1100 miles this weekend, I have noticed no slippage, and quieter valves and smoother shifts. What an awesome machine!

Well Bill, I don't think you're part of the hijacking of this thread about oil, since you were at Deals Gap scraping boards and more. By the way, does AMSOIL carry the chrome filter for the 106? or did you get that at Catlin's?