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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 19
| I have taken my 2010 Ness Vision to a dealer 5 times in the last 10days with rear brake failure. The first time the mechanic said "I bet the bike has been sitting awhile". I have put on 23,000 miles in the last 22 months so my bike does not sit. The first two times they bled the lines and said "that should do it. When each time the "fix" only lasted about 60 miles, when I took it back the third time, they bled the brakes again and ordered a master cylinder. I paid for overnight shipping.. they installed it and it lasted 3 days, then rear brake failure again. So I went back again and they bled the brakes and tightened all of the fittings, once again the "fix lasted about 50-60 miles. I know the brakes are linked and it sort of "trains" me to use more rear brake pedal than front. I am afraid that I am going to hurt myself one of these days.
I have checked the lines and calipers and I do not see any signs of leaking fluid. The rear reservoir has never been low, but I did add to the front.
Any suggestions? I am supposed to take a business trip on my bike up to Canada in the next week and I really do not feel like traveling w/o rear brakes. I have heard of issues on the 2008 and 2009 models, but nothing on the 2010 and newer models.
Frustrated in Maryland! |
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Cruiser
Posts: 154
Danbury, Connecticut | Dave, does it deteriorate gradually or is it fine one moment and then the next stop it's gone? Will the pedal pump up. What is the condition of your rear pads? Does the condition only arise while riding or can you park the bike with a good pedal and come back to a poor one? It would help to know which caliper(s) have air in them. Any indication of overheated brakes-dragging caliper? |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 19
| It is fine one moment and then it is gone. If I pump the pedal 6-10 times, I can get some stopping power. Rear pads are in spec. The air seems to settle in the front caliper. I do not see any indication of heated brakes front or rear(plus it doesnt gradually happen, like overheating, it is all of a sudden) Two of the five times it occurred while the bike was turned off for a couple of hours. Fine when I parked it and then when I started it, nothing. The other three times it happened mid ride.(50 miles or so, after parking the brakes do not come back again until the lines are bled. Any suggestions?
2010 Ness Vision
2006 Ness Jackpot
2003 American Coach Heritage 45'
2010 N |
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Visionary
Posts: 2027
Brighton, TN | You got air. If i were guessing. No leaks and they pump up. If they are trying to bleed down to th.e caliper, very hard to get it all. Some places push fluid from the caliper up to the master cylinder. Since it is basically vertical the bubbles rise faster than you can pull fluid. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 19
| I understand that I have air in the system, but it is a closed system and I should have added that they flushed the system and all new fluid on I think trip #2 or #3 to the dealer, plus this makes 5 times in 10 days that they have bled the brakes. Besides the master cylinder, I can't imagine how air gets in, when fluid does not get out. While braking, the pressure of the fluid has to be greater than the suction when the pedal is released. So if air is entering, you would think that fluid would be leaving.
2010 Ness Vision
2006 Ness Jackpot
2003 American Coach Heritage 45' |
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Tourer
Posts: 500
| Some have said rear brake issues on Visions are sometimes very difficult to find and fix.....You might try a different dealer with a more experienced brake tech???...Send an e-mail to KevinX on the VMC...Probably one of the best and most knowledgeable guys around that can solve Victory issues...He works at a dealership in Gainsville, Florida... |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 19
| Thanks for the info about KevinX. I am currently at my other residence in Maryland and I need to take a business trip on my bike. I have called 3 other dealers in my area and none can take a look at my bike for at least a week. Seems like Victory dealers are becoming more and more like HD dealers everyday!!!! |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| Did they bleed the front break using the center bleeder
Or maybe it the link cylinder that holds presure on the rear lines it would be dow by the front right floor board. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 50
Huntsville On Canada |
recently read this on the VMC forum. never heard of it before. might be worth a try.
http://forums.thevmc.com/bb/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=123799&posts... |
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Cruiser
Posts: 154
Danbury, Connecticut | I don't know what your mechanical skills are but if this was my bike, this is how I would proceed. Look at the bleeder heads without the rubber caps on. Go to Home Depot and get 2 feet of clear vinyl tubing that will fit snug tight over the bleeder head and cut it into 8 inch pieces. The next time it suddenly goes bad, immediately crack the bleeders one by one with the hose attached and vertical. See where the bubbles appear when you just crack the bleeders. I would then block off the banjo fitting of that line using the appropriate size flange bolt, flange nut (flange bolt/washer are the type with machined in washer portion) and two copper crush washers. Plug the port at the caliper to keep dirt out and keep fluid from dripping out and ride it cautiously to see if the problem is gone-you'll need to do some parking lot test stops and see if you are comfortable with the stopping power to continue riding it that way long enough to verify. If the problem stays away I would replace or rebuild that caliper. Air molecules are smaller than those of brake fluid so on rare occasion they can sneak past a seal with minimal fluid seepage appearing. Obviously, you have to use your own judgement on whether you feel you can do this and you feel comfortable doing it and riding in this manner. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 19
| Thanks Jackfrost, I used to be a VMC member but my membership has lapsed and it won't allow me to view. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 19
| Thanks Steve. Since I already know that the air is settling in the front caliper, I suppose I could block off the line and run it for awhile and if no air develops in that line, then I could determine if the issue is in the front caliper or not. If air still develops, it is somewhere else in the system. |
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Visionary
Posts: 2027
Brighton, TN | Pull that caliper off, its two bolts. then I would flip it around, upside down etc. to see if you couldn't dislodge it. Bleed it while you hold it as high as you can get it. On my dirt bike this was the only way I could get the rear caliper bled properly. There was a small upside down U going over the swingarm holding a LOT of air.
I looked last night and didn't really see a large loop that could be holding air. It's either as the guy recommended above or I would be figuring out a syringe and plastic tubing to push fluid back through the system. I bet if you did that your problems go away. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 154
Danbury, Connecticut | The thing is, if there is air in the system anywhere between the master and caliper that air will compress and the pedal will be spongy-it doesn't have to work its way to the caliper before it becomes noticeable. He has to have air getting in past a seal somewhere-wouldn't you think? |
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Visionary
Posts: 2027
Brighton, TN | Legal Disclaimer - Remember I'm a computer guy, not a mechanic.
SteveS - Correct it doesn't have to work its way anywhere to be spongy or non existent. Air in the system at all, screws the pooch. Personal experience tells me if air is coming in around a seal, when I exert enough pressure on the system from the braking levers, then I would probably have a leak at that poiint. He is experiencing the same thing I had. |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| Air always goes to the highest point. So you can unbolt caliper and unbolt line where it goes over the swing arm. Now put caliper higher then master cylinder you can bleed.
The only seals there are a round the caliper pistons. So if they were leaking air the piston would go out then back in. There spouse to stay out.
Could be bad rear master cylinder. Its not holding pressure on the caliper. Your dealer could unhook the the line coming off the master cylinder and hold hit finger on the line and then press the brake. It you do it hard your finger would not hold the pressure back and fluid would spray out. So you want to put constant pressure on the line an finger and see if the pressure stays.
still think it could be the Delay Valve To Proportioning Valve
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Cruiser
Posts: 174
Edmonton, AB | FL&MD Dave - 2012-07-19 5:34 AM
Thanks Steve. Since I already know that the air is settling in the front caliper, I suppose I could block off the line and run it for awhile and if no air develops in that line, then I could determine if the issue is in the front caliper or not. If air still develops, it is somewhere else in the system.
While reading the posts above, I remembered reading the following about a week ago in the Service Manual for my 2008 Vision when I was getting ready to flush the brake fluid on my 2008 Vision. I thought I would add it here as another possible source of a recurring problem with Air in the brake lines....I know yours is not a 2008 but the same may apply to your bike as well.
******************************************************************
From Page 15.13 of the 2008 Vision Service Manual...
BRAKE FLUID REPLACEMENT & BLEEDING PRECAUTIONS
Keep these points in mind when bleeding hydraulic brakes:
- Small amounts of air can become trapped in the banjo bolt fittings at the master cylinder(s) and junction points
of brake lines. These fittings can be purged of air by following a standard bleeding procedure at these fittings
(instead of the bleed screw on caliper) if necessary to speed the bleeding process. This is usually only needed
if system was completely drained of fluid. Bleed each line connection, starting with the fitting closest to the
master cylinder, working toward the caliper, and ending with the bleed screw.
******************************************************************
I know yours was not completely drained of fluid but perhaps there has been some air trapped at these fittings when it was first assembled and it has never been evacuated by the normal bleeding process.
Edited by Newfie 2012-07-19 10:10 PM
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Tourer
Posts: 367
Cottage Grove, Mn | Have you checked the delay and proportioning valve to be sure they are functioning properly???? |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 19
| Blackjack - 2012-07-20 10:35 AM
Have you checked the delay and proportioning valve to be sure they are functioning properly????
Well, The delay valve is something new to me. The proportioning valve as far as I know is a static valve, so nothing can go bad as far as I know. All connections appear tight and and no leaking fluid. It has had the brakes applied for 24 hours now and no loss in pedal or leaks anywhere which makes me believe air must be getting in the system when the pedal is released which would be one of the seals one one of the calipers or the master cylinder(which was just replaced so I would think it would be unlikely that I was sent a bad one. |
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Tourer
Posts: 367
Cottage Grove, Mn | FL&MD Dave - 2012-07-20 2:47 PM
Blackjack - 2012-07-20 10:35 AM
Have you checked the delay and proportioning valve to be sure they are functioning properly????
Well, The delay valve is something new to me. The proportioning valve as far as I know is a static valve, so nothing can go bad as far as I know. All connections appear tight and and no leaking fluid. It has had the brakes applied for 24 hours now and no loss in pedal or leaks anywhere which makes me believe air must be getting in the system when the pedal is released which would be one of the seals one one of the calipers or the master cylinder(which was just replaced so I would think it would be unlikely that I was sent a bad one.
I do know that if the proportioning valve pin does not reset itself or center itself after every brake application it will create issues.
If it sticks in either the front or rear positions it will allow for a soft spongy brakes or no brakes at all on either the front or rear brakes depending on the position it is stuck in. Bleeding the system will allow the pin to reset itself giving you solid brake pressure on either the front or rear brakes until it sticks again.
Since the hydraulic system does not operate in a vacuum there is virtually no way for ambient air to be drawn into for the system itself unless either of the master cylinders are allowed to run dry.
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 19
| Well I couldn't find the problem, I took it back to the dealer. They bled the brakes for the 5th or 6th time and applied pressure to the brake pedal and let it sit with the brakes applied for 4 days. No leaks and the pedal did not become soft. Frustrated with the Victory tech as they got him on the line and they said the fix is to bleed the brakes. I could see once or twice, but 5 or 6 times? Something had to cause the air to get in there in the first place. My bike has not sat and I have not run low on fluid.
It is very hard to even get in touch with a Victory rep. I think they could use better customer service as far as this goes IMHO.
I don't see how it could be the proportioning valve as I lose both linked brakes when I lose the rear brake pedal. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 51
Arizona | I would suggest anyone that has had issues. To post a complaint. Not many have done this, which Victory will not address the issue until more people file a claim.
http://www.arfc.org/complaints/2008/victory/vision_tour/ |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| FL&MD Dave - 2012-07-23 7:04 PM Well I couldn't find the problem, I took it back to the dealer. They bled the brakes for the 5th or 6th time and applied pressure to the brake pedal and let it sit with the brakes applied for 4 days. No leaks and the pedal did not become soft. Frustrated with the Victory tech as they got him on the line and they said the fix is to bleed the brakes. I could see once or twice, but 5 or 6 times? Something had to cause the air to get in there in the first place. My bike has not sat and I have not run low on fluid. It is very hard to even get in touch with a Victory rep. I think they could use better customer service as far as this goes IMHO. I don't see how it could be the proportioning valve as I lose both linked brakes when I lose the rear brake pedal. With pressure on the pedal in the down poshion it will not allow air to leak in. Have the Tech order you a new master cylinder at his expense |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 23
WI | I remember reading about this issue and I believe the problem was the rear brake line has a failure and sucks air into the system. Call Kevinx he is familiar with this issue |
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New user
Posts: 4
| I had a similar problem with the brake pedal, to fix it they bleed the, front caliper which is also operated by the rear brake pedal. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 19
| They bled the front right, then the front left, then the rear. 13 times now. Seems like Victory is finally doing something about it. It is a shame that it took this many attempts until they figured something was wrong and they need to take some action. Good thing before my wife became a widow.........that's my opinion, hers might be different!!!!
David
2010 Ness Vision
2006 Ness Jackpot
2011 BMW 325 Convertible
2003 American Coach Heritage 45' |
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2010 Vision Rear Brake Failure