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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| Ok, I'm from SoCal so even though I've had a ton of bikes and ridden for too many years I haven't had a lot of experience riding a Vision in the rain until recently. My wife and I just got back from a 8664 mile trek across the US from Charlotte, NC back to SoCal the long way around. During the first week we had the distinct pleasure of riding West Virginia which has to have some of the best motorcycle roads I've ever seen in the US. One of those days included some on and off rain. I had three distinct incidences when the Vision's front wheel slid on the wet pavement while executing a curve. I was able to save all of them but the rest of the rain ride was nothing short of major tip toeing around turns.
The bike is a 2013 with about 2000 miles on it at the time. It has E3 tires with pressures set 38F/40R. We run without the trunk opting rather for a medium T-Bag. The side cases were full and my wife is petite. I run 40psi in the rear shock. I've certainly experienced how susceptible the Vision's front tire is to tar snakes but to have it slide like it did in the rain is something new. I've had a '10, '11 and now the '13 Vision so I have some 85K miles worth of experience on them almost exclusively in dry conditions. The first slide was at about 35 mph going up a slight hill with a left hand curve. As I went around the curve the bike headed off toward the shoulder. I slowed gently and it regained traction. The other two times we were in relatively tight turns at slow speed when the front slipped. As you can imagine the rest of the day's riding in the rain had me going through easy turns at a walking pace. Scared shitless to be honest.
I would love to hear from Vision riders (Chris!!) who live in wet climates as to your experiences riding in the wet along with any suggestions you might have. Certainly there is something out of the ordinary regarding the Vision that makes it's front so prone to let go when encountering slick surfaces like tar snakes, rain, etc. On the other hand maybe its a "big bike" thing. Most everything I've had has been smaller like Beemers, etc and none of them have reacted like this bike has. In any case, we can't change the bike and I truly love it so what's the alternative? Is there a better setup when encountering rain? Are there better rain tires available? Have you had the same experience I had? How do you handle riding in the wet with your Vision?
Any comments are really appreciated!
Marc |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| I rode harley baggers for years and tar snakes were never a issue. When I picked up my vision I mess my pants the first ride when I hit a snake.
Went to ME880 and a hole lot less problems with the snakes. I think the E3's don't have enough groves so it makes for a slippery ride.
Last fall all most went down twice on wet pavement and taking corners. No more E3's for me |
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Tourer
Posts: 447
Cleveland, GA | I ride about 20,000 miles a year on my 2008 - in all kinds of weather - and I've only had a couple of tiny slips on tar snakes (and yes, they did increase the pucker factor, even though it only slipped a little). I don't have any idea why your bike has those issues. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 181
Henlow, Bedfordshire, England | Because I live in England wet riding is unavoidable, the Vision can be interesting in the wet but I have found it is very much related to the wear on the tyres. Whenever I have newer tyres I dont seem to get the problems but only last week I had a nightmare on roundabouts in the wet but found the wear pattern on the front was very bad, getting them done later today. (the tyres were changed at 10000 and it is now on 20000, the rear has lasted longer than normal for me, the front about average) |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | Since you called me out, Marc, I will answer. I've used E3 for the past 7 years, on my Gold Wings, and now on my Vision, stock from the factory, of course. I have found no reason to switch. Here in Virginia, they use the tar snack compound to patch the road sometimes, and I've noticed the same thing in West Virginia. Knowing this, I am aways a little more cautious in the curves when it is raining. Because I have not used a different tire, I cannot openly dispute the claims that the E3s are a hazard above any other tire when it comes to tar snakes. But reasoning is to me, rubber in the wet is always slicker than when it is drier. Therefore, I do use caution in the turns, any turns when the road is wet. Way too many factors are in play when the road is wet. The road compond, are there any chemicals on the road that are slick when wet, are the tires clear of the new protective coating, is there dirt on the road, just to name some.
So far, there has been nothing to convince me that the E3s are an inferior tire, even after the hundreds of tirades I have read to the contrary. Why? Because every ride is a snap-shot in time, and folks will base that off of that snap shot reasoning. I've slipped a few times, and believe I almost lost it in a turn with the tar snake compound that covered my entire travel lane on a wet day. I've hit a turn where an accident took place and I reasonsed there was oil and anti-freeze on the road and the drizzle made it like snot. Or the day I got a new rear tire and I went through West Virginia, and on the first curve I almost lost it because of the protective compound was still on the edges. I have rode in torrential down pours in E3 and have never felt a slip from hydroplanning and I was doing 70+. Being a little cautious in the curves because it stands to reason, you are exerting an outward force on a wet road and water is a FRICTION REDUCER, so I think it is a prudent thing to do with any tire to slow down. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1109
| I noticed the same problem with E3's so after a couple sets I switched to Avon. In my opinion a better all around tire, dry or wet. Used Avon on my wing too, I never had much luck with Dunlop. I know friends that swear by them but I won't use them again. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 185
Rhode Island | I noticed the same issue with the E3 and switched to Bridgestone front tire. Certain areas like upstate NY seem to use a patch compound that is much worse than others. Just got back from a 2 day 800 mi run throught NY, VT and the Berkshires, avoided rain but due to fog, mist and riding in the clouds the roads were mostly wet. The Bridgestone seemed to grip much better and I found myself able to relax more in the corners; my bias ply Dunlops on the Kingpin were poor in this area also. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 19
Harbor Springs Michigan | I've had the Mezzler ME880's on other cruiser bikes and now on my Vision. I personnally like them better than the Dunlops. In the rain I've not encountered any slips and have actiually rode in a torrential downpour. I do agree that the roads in West Virgina ROCK for bike riding. Even the repairs are smooth. Love it and have been back there a few times and look forward to them again. Virginia is nice, but they love to ticket us northerners. Tip, don't speed in Virginia. If you want to take a Dragon Tail type of road, try the 12oclock Nob. I set my GPS for "non-highway" and it took me to it. Wow was that a ride. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 880
Orlando, FL | Longevity VS. Handling
My Two Cents~
Tires, like oil, always seem to be a point of discussion on any motorcycle forum. I could talk about tire compounding and design all day long. But here are a couple of key points that I'll base my discussion on.
1. Your mention of the fact that this is the first big bike you have ridden, noting your previous rides have been smaller bikes like a Beemer.
2. While there are many variables that account for road traction, one of the major variables that you have control over is your selection of tire.
Different tires are designed to do different things. Smaller bikes like a crotch rocket have tires designed for cornering and speed. Those tires do not have a long life. Often wearing out in 5,000 to 7,000 miles for the average rider. However they are designed with a focus on handling not longevity.
When you move to a Touring bike such as the Vision or a Harley Ultra Glide, tires are designed toward longevity first and handling second. These bikes were not designed to handle like a crotch rocket, and customers want longevity. Just look at the number of people who go Darkside for tire longevity. Hence, Touring bike tires are harder, last longer, but do not have the stickiness that a tire on a crotch rocket would have and therefore have less handling capability.
In between these two examples are variations of the basic theme. As you move from what is essentially a road racing bike to a touring bike the need for handling gets less emphasis and longevity gets more emphasis. That explains a major reason your experience with smaller bikes is vastly different from your Vision. Check the speed rating on a Beemer's tire. Then check the speed rating on your E3's. That will give you a clue right there.
On every bike I have owned, when the tires needed to be replaced, I never replaced them with the stock tires. I always changed to tires geared towards handling rather than longevity. For me, the change is worth the loss of mileage. For others, it is not. I can't comment on your preference. But the important thing to remember is that you can fill the proverbial tire glass with longevity or handling. But the more you fill the glass with one, the less room you have for the other.
A wide tire selection is easier to find smaller cruisers. You can often find sport bike like tires that fit some smaller cruisers. My Kawasaki 1500 V twin had Metzler's made for a sport bike. The handling improved dramatically. But the tires only lasted 7500 miles. I was okay with that mix of longevity and handling.
The Vision being a low selling volume bike (compared to BMW's and Harley's Etc.) has few tire options. On the Vision it comes down to a choice of three or four tires to my knowledge. First the Dunlop E3's. No need to comment on those. Second, Avon's. Third, Metzler's. While all of these are cruising tires, the Avon's and the Metzler's are better known for their handling ability. Hence, you will get less mileage out of them. Yes I'm sure this will inspire quite a debate also. Consider the owners of the sport Gold wing known as Valkyrie. They almost always use Avon tires. And also note that the Avon tire for the Valkyrie is speed rated to over 150 mph. This is not true of the Dunlops and it is not true of the Avon's that fit the Vision. Can't remember what the Metzler's are speed rated for.
Metzler is also a good choice. I have used Metzler's on my smaller rides and loved them. But in the last couple of years I've heard some complaints of Metzler tires were manufactured in Brazil, rather than Germany and poor quality control.
Lastly there other Bridgestone's. Which Have never been my personal choice of tire, and I know nothing about.
So there you have it. Longevity versus Handling. The mix (within the available range) is up to you.
Edited by MaddMAx2u 2012-10-06 10:04 AM
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Cruiser
Posts: 104
ROCHESTER,NY | Well said VA.Only thing to add, we all have experienced the, road patch snake,or the wet weather riding, even the accident scene left overs. The thing to keep in mind is, the tire recovered with your help. So then, tire really isn't really the issue. It's the patch crack shit that they use. Again, well said VA, your main goal, is to pay more attention while in wet conditions. And... SLOW THE FUCK DOWN!!!!!!
RIDE HARD!!!!!!!!!LIVE FAST!!!!!!!!!!!DIE FREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| Thanks for all the responses. I think the take away from all this is that the Vision is particular susceptible to anything that compromises its front traction. I've always been careful regardless of what I'm on when running over tar snakes and particularly when they're wet or hot. Same thing with wet riding, slow down and take corners with as smooth a line as possible with neutral power. 50 years and I've not crashed in the wet yet thankfully.
I am hearing that some of you have changed tires brands. Of the three mentioned: Bridgestone, Metzler ME880, Avon Cobra, I've tried the Bridgestones and ended up taking them off early. I didn't like the profile which made me feel like the bike was going to fall over in a turn. I'd be interested to try the other two even though we all know that both rears are significantly lower in load rating compared to Dunlop. 827 lbs vs 992 lbs. One interesting thing, I checked the Avon site and if you go through their bike model menu it ends up with the Cobra but lists the load as 80H. If you look at their catalog it lists the same tire as 74H. Does that mean they have two? I've got a new set of E3s sitting here ready to be mounted so I might use them this time around and then give the Cobras a try.
Again, thanks for all the response.
Marc |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 880
Orlando, FL | Marc, depending on annual your mileage, I would use the E3's first, as tires do not last forever even if unused. At least check the date on the tires if you are going to wait and mount something else first.
As for the load rating, all I can find for AVON COBRA's on the company's page is the 74 load rating for the radial. the "H" is the speed rating. H stands for speeds up to 130 MPH. Here's the link to the Avon Page. Chart is at the bottom of the page.
http://www.avontyres.com/node/164
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| MaddMAx2u - 2012-10-06 9:59 AM
Marc, depending on annual your mileage, I would use the E3's first, as tires do not last forever even if unused. At least check the date on the tires if you are going to wait and mount something else first.
As for the load rating, all I can find for AVON COBRA's on the company's page is the 74 load rating for the radial. the "H" is the speed rating. H stands for speeds up to 130 MPH. Here's the link to the Avon Page. Chart is at the bottom of the page.
http://www.avontyres.com/node/164
I'm ordering a set of Cobras now. BTW, Jake Wilson carries the 80H version. They call it oversize/heavyweight. Here is the order info from them:
180/60R-16 (80H) Avon Cobra AV72 Rear Motorcycle Tire Part # 1245150002
If these handle as well as I've read then I'll sell the E3s locally. What kind of mileage are you getting from the Cobras? If you go through their application menu on the r/s of that page and use a Goldwing you'll come to the 80H version.
Marc |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| BTW, anybody in SoCal want a brand new set of E3s? Just make me an offer and come pick them up.
Marc |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1109
| Marc, I switched to Cobras about a month or so ago. I can't tell you about mileage yet but the handling is night and day. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| Good to hear! Thanks!
Marc |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 880
Orlando, FL | Marc, thans for the info. Are you getting the Goldwing model? It's intersting to me that they do not show that model on the main Avon Cobra page! had I known I would have ordered that instead of the 74H. And I tried looking for the Vision and yup......it comes back with the 80H version! Go figger! That puts to rest all the max weight crapolla between the E3 and the Cobra
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Only had the tires for about five thousand miles. Tires are looking good and I expect I'll get about 10k. That's as good as I got from the Dunlops. And to me they just feel better in the turns and in the rain. Let me know what you think of them when you ride in the rain again! 
Edited by MaddMAx2u 2012-10-06 4:22 PM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| Perfect! 10K is all I get as well. The set before these I wore the front out on the sides. This time due to the trip and 2-up the rear tread wear indicator has hit. Both times at 10K. Interestingly the Jake Wilson site only shows the 80H version for both the Wing and Vision. I wonder if maybe Avon has upgraded. Dunno. I know the perfect patch of tar snakes to try them out on once they're broken in :-)
Marc |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 44
Middleburg, Fl. | In recent years, I've had a Harley Electra Glide, a Goldwing, and now the Vision. E3's on the Goldwing and the Vision. Never experienced any issues in rain except with the 'wing on takeoff when going across white marker paint. - but when it rains, I ride VERY conservatively. Living in Florida, we get a lot of rain - sometimes after extended periods without any rain. The most dangerous time is the first few minutes of rain - particularly light rain - after a dry spell. A couple of hours into heavy downpours, and the oil is washed off and you get pretty good grip. One thing I've noticed with these newer profiles that are more rounded, to put more rubber down in a lean - they tend to "walk" sideways when the rear spins, either in rain or on dirt. Never noticed that with the older more squared off rear tires.
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1109
| If I can get 10k out these Cobras I'll be happy. My E3's were good until 13-14 but I'll give up the mileage for the grip. I ride fairly aggressively and I just never felt comfortable with the Dunlops. |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | Ive noticed the same thing on Freshly Painted lines on the road (when wet) its like riding on oil... i know this wont make sense what im about to say but... i noticed this alot more on my 08 than on my 11 vision.. both have the same tires.. right before i traded in my 08 vision i installed a ME880 front tire but never had a chance to put alot of miles on it before i decided to trade it in .... In going to need a new front tire next year im curious if i change brands if i will notice any difference.... |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 880
Orlando, FL | Arkainzeye, just an FYI, motorcycle tires have rain grooves (tread design) that are expressly engineered to work together, in tandem, to sweep away the water effectively and provide the best grip in wet conditions. The front grooves work in partnership with the rear grooves. Mixing tires will cause a loss in the ability of the tires to sweep away the water in the most effective manner and will therefore cause a lower amount of traction in wet conditions. The same is true of the tire composition in both wet and dry weather. (Tire grooves are pretty meaningless in dry conditions). It's one of the reasons tire companies advise not to mix and match tires. Just sayin'
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | @MaddMAx2U are you saying the rear tire can tell what front tire you have on the bike? the front tire is smaller than the rear so the water is it pushing away would be less of a contact patch than the rear anyways.. Ive rarely ever kept the same make and model of tires on my bikes in the past 20 years. Hell if this is the case then the darksiders REALLY arent in the same realm of same tread patterns etc.. LOL (im also doing that now as well) and i got caught in seriously heavy rains when i rode to sturgis/devil tower. and this was with a CAR tire on the rear and the stock E3 on the front. and never did i feel the different/ type/makes/models,of the tires ever created a issue. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 140
| No, you should have had at least 50psi in the rear shock. The Vision is very sensitive to that adjustment, the only suspension adjustment you have. You were way too light on the front. Much better, on the rear, to have too much lift than not enough. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 46
Taylorsville, KY | Didn't see it mentioned; but a lot of roads in WV and eastern KY can be overly slick when wet due to coal dust on the roads. You can't see it but sure can feel it! |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| lowtone9 - 2012-10-07 6:11 AM
No, you should have had at least 50psi in the rear shock. The Vision is very sensitive to that adjustment, the only suspension adjustment you have. You were way too light on the front. Much better, on the rear, to have too much lift than not enough.That is incorrect according to Victory. Look inside your left bag and you'll find Victory's recommended pressures for particular loads. 50 psi is for a 400 lb load and our total load is less than that. I calculated it when determining the 40 psi I ran.
Marc |
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Cruiser
Posts: 140
| You and your passenger plus luggage are less than 400 lbs? Well, OK. The only time I've ever had trouble with the front pushing was when the rear shock needed some correction. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| MaddMAx2u - 2012-10-07 5:48 AM
Arkainzeye, just an FYI, motorcycle tires have rain grooves (tread design) that are expressly engineered to work together, in tandem, to sweep away the water effectively and provide the best grip in wet conditions. The front grooves work in partnership with the rear grooves. Mixing tires will cause a loss in the ability of the tires to sweep away the water in the most effective manner and will therefore cause a lower amount of traction in wet conditions. The same is true of the tire composition in both wet and dry weather. (Tire grooves are pretty meaningless in dry conditions). It's one of the reasons tire companies advise not to mix and match tires. Just sayin'
As a general rule not mixing tire types, design or manufacturer is good advice as far as handling and stability go but whether the particular syping of the front tire brand itself actually affects another brand's rear traction in the rain is a bit questionable to me. The job of the front sypes is to channel water out to the sides clearing a path for the tire patch and in the front tire's case, reduce the amount of water the rear has to deal with potentially increasing rear traction. The question is whether one particular brand's front syping design would be so different that it would significantly affect the syping of the rear tire. Certainly one design can be better than another so one front tire might move more water than another but to say just the fact that brands are mixed can cause reduced traction on the rear might be a bit of a stretch. The possibility is that if you installed a front tire with superior syping than the rear's normal counterpart you could even improve traction. I'm no tire engineer for sure so I'm just thinking out loud. Lots of guys run different fronts and rears and certainly nothing terrible happens. I think it really depends on the particular tires involved and the application they're used in. You wouldn't want to run a knobby at one end and a slick on the other probably and you might want to be very careful when messing around with mixing tires on a 200 mph MotoGP bike but under lesser circumstances you might just get away with it.
BTW, on my recent trip I followed a guy on a Wing for about 50 miles on Canadian twisties with a car tire on the rear. I was absolutely amazed at the amount of sidewall flex as he rolled from one side to the other almost to the extent that it looked like the tread was going to hit the bead. You would think the sidewall would overheat and fail eventually but in reality these guys run this way for thousands of miles and nothing happens. Its amazing how far out of the box modern technology lets us venture and get away with it.
Marc |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| lowtone9 - 2012-10-07 6:57 AM
You and your passenger plus luggage are less than 400 lbs? Well, OK. The only time I've ever had trouble with the front pushing was when the rear shock needed some correction.In our case we are right at 350 lbs total. I agree that dropping the rear too far can definitely effect handling in corners for no other reason that it increases the fork angle slightly which reduces turn-in. The amount/effect of weight transfer I'm not so sure about. On my '11 bike I installed 8 Ball springs, spacers and cartridges which dropped the front 1". The improvement in turn-in was noticeable besides the fact that it softened the ride tremendously. Be careful where you park it, though :-)
Marc |
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Cruiser
Posts: 140
| Oh yeah, I'm sure you're correct, especially if you've already dropped the front an inch. My experience on the 08 suggests, to me at least, that tne effect of just a few lbs is significant.
I underestimated my load weight once in the NC mountains, was starting to drag the rear tipover first, and came close to a low side in a very bad place. Not a great feeling! So I added pressure and then the tipovers were hitting together and pushing me straight across the lane, which is still not a great feeling, but better. It is not a sportbike. |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| when you lower the front know matter how you need a shorter kickstand |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 880
Orlando, FL | Arkainzeye - 2012-10-07 9:59 AM
@MaddMAx2U are you saying the rear tire can tell what front tire you have on the bike? the front tire is smaller than the rear so the water is it pushing away would be less of a contact patch than the rear anyways..
That is EXACTLY what I am saying. The design of the tread on the front and the design of the tread on the rear are engineered to work together pushing the water away from the tire. Talk to anyone that designs motorcycle tires. Most people won't notice a difference. But those who want the best traction especially in wet conditions will get it with PAIRED TIRES!
It's similar to the thought process of putting bias ply on the front of your car and radial on the rear. They are engineered and work differently. The handling would suffer when most needed. But for much of the day to day driving you would never notice. We all accept that. But people seem surprised that motorcycle tires do work in tandem. Tread, sidewall flex, composition, etc. And as technology gets better and better this becomes more and more important. Do you think they tell you to buy the same tire brand and tire type just to make a buck? Nope.
But hey, don't believe me. Check it out for yourself. Or just blow it off and keep your flip phone~!
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Visionary
Posts: 1308
Sand Rock, AL United States | I'm a longevity guy. It's E3's for me . I can't afford to replace tires all the time and I don't ride that aggressive and really respect wet roads (ride them carefully in corners). |
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Visionary
Posts: 1365
Central Maryland | jimtom - 2012-10-08 8:29 AM
I'm a longevity guy. It's E3's for me . I can't afford to replace tires all the time and I don't ride that aggressive and really respect wet roads (ride them carefully in corners).
Ditto |
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Tourer
Posts: 482
Beer Collins, Colorado (there is no fort) | I've put my share of miles on E3s and when new and compared to another new tire they're great-never had any issues in wet conditions other than some cattle guards, rail road tracks, & metal bridge expansion joints that I should have broke traction and coasted over-just a quick slip that reset my heart. I believe a tire doesn't show its true colors until its half life & beyond and that's where most of my issues with Dunlops occur. My issues with the tar snakes around here is a temperature thing-cool mornings no problem but when it gets hot they turn into gummy worms and mostly seem to effect the front wheel for me & make it interesting to pick a line through the corners to keep off 'em. Both my Vics have Avons on them. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1308
Sand Rock, AL United States | I had the same quick slip on tar snakes out west and it only took one slip and I had a new found respect for them too.  |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| ByteN2it - 2012-10-08 6:16 AM
I've put my share of miles on E3s and when new and compared to another new tire they're great-never had any issues in wet conditions other than some cattle guards, rail road tracks, & metal bridge expansion joints that I should have broke traction and coasted over-just a quick slip that reset my heart. I believe a tire doesn't show its true colors until its half life & beyond and that's where most of my issues with Dunlops occur. My issues with the tar snakes around here is a temperature thing-cool mornings no problem but when it gets hot they turn into gummy worms and mostly seem to effect the front wheel for me & make it interesting to pick a line through the corners to keep off 'em. Both my Vics have Avons on them.Just wondering if you could elaborate a bit on the differences between the Cobras and Dunlops:
How are they on slippery surfaces like tar snakes, rain?
How about handling? Do the Cobras turn in the same or feel different?
How about stability on the highway going straight? Does the Vision move around as much as it did with the Dunlops?
Are they quieter than the Dunlops when going around curves after they have 5K on them or so?
How does the mileage compare?
Anyone that has experience with Cobras and could give some feedback would be appreciated.
Marc |
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Tourer
Posts: 482
Beer Collins, Colorado (there is no fort) | I've only got a thousand miles on the Vision with Avon Cobras on it with just a couple of wet rides-very sure footed so far-no slips or wiggles, smooth & quite(trying Ride On for 1st time) and like all new tires the handling is great. I've ran Venom bias ply tires on my '99 V92C for many years after going through a couple of OEM Dulops, two sets of Metzler 880 Marathons (worst mileage ever 7,500 on each rear) and when I put the Venoms on it was like a big ol' sport bike & I love pushing it through the many canyons 'round here with confidence. Time will tell on the Cobras but for now I couldn't be happier. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1350
| Check your front end. I have rode in a far bit of rain. Never felt any worse than the '99 and '03 V92Cs in it just heavier. I have a little over 5 lbs in the rear shock so both feet touch the ground.
Everyone has a different feel from experience. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
| Received the Cobras and the rear is in fact heavy duty.  Marc
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Vision Riding In The Wet