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Cruiser
Posts: 53
Claremont,Mn | Not sure whats all involved in the upgraded LLoydz cam install procedure. Is this something one can do on there own? Does the service Manual cover it? Just buying the Bike and have yet to purchase a service manual. Thanks in advance. Its a 2012 Vision |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | If you are a competent wrench; you can do it, but the book says the motor has to come out. When I do them I don't pull the motor or body panels |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 36
Florida | I would highly recommend NOT doing this job your self. I had Kevinx do mine and saw what was involved. He has done a ton of these things. If you want it done right, have Kevinx or LLoyd do it for you. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1066
Peru, IN | Or Rylan Vos. I think Kevin can do cams, VFC, top filter and timing wheel in 2 or 3 hours. He knows all the tricks (as does Lloyd and Rylan). Unless you've worked on bikes and specifically the 106 Victorys, I'd leave it up to the pros. For about $1400 (parts and labor + 3 other bikes), Kevin will even come to your house for a "cam party". I "think" Rylan will do the same although Kevin is famous for it. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 53
Claremont,Mn | Thanks for the info and insight. Lloyds and Kevinx are a bit of a journey as i'm in MN. Now before anyone says "hey you're on the worlds greatest touring machine, what a killer reason to take a trip", my work schedules pretty busy during summer months...no time for a big trip. Anyone compitent in the upper mid-west thats worthy of a referal ? |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1066
Peru, IN | Rylan Vos (aka The Vic Shop) is in Adel, IA. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 53
Claremont,Mn | Thanks Monkeyman. Ill look him up when I'm ready to pull the trigger.
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Cruiser
Posts: 106
Clinton, CT | Scheduled for some major work in a week (next Friday) with Kyle at KMC in Westerly RI. Being new to the Victory and not having a full shop/garage anymore, I need some expertise.
Will post back with the results!
/r
Allen |
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Cruiser
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DeRidder, LA | Anyone know of someone in Louisiana/East Texas doing cams? |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1109
| I going to try and get enough people together in 2-3 months in the north Texas area. I'll have a shop by then. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | kris1956 - 2013-06-15 7:52 AM
I going to try and get enough people together in 2-3 months in the north Texas area. I'll have a shop by then.
All I need is a flat space out of the weather, and a pry bar. I bring[ship] everything else to the party
BTW Tx is about my favorite place for cam parties
Edited by kevinx 2013-06-15 10:23 AM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1109
| Kevin if I put this together in a couple months you'll have a shop to work in. I'm in the process of buying an 8 bay repair shop so space won't be a problem. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1365
Central Maryland | Hey Kevin,
I recently had a cam lobe eat one of my tappets in my Triumph Rocket (it has the Carpenter Racing 240hp package installed). The cams had to be sent back out and re-grinded and most of my tappets replaced; and the damage was attributed to the Rotella T6 synthetic oil; that had the Zinc reduced in it (discovered this after the fact).
Although the Rocket is a flat tappet style engine; radical cams call for an oil high in Zinc and Phosphate (ZDDP) so I am currently now running Amsoil Heavy Duty Marine Synthetic (I have heavier clutch springs so don't have to worry about clutch plate slippage). After saying all of this, I have a question for you...
...what I wanted to ask you; is when you do the Cam package, do you recommend another oil with a higher level of ZDDP (Zinc and Phosphate) to prevent wear?
Edited by willtill 2013-06-15 10:36 AM
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | willtill - 2013-06-15 11:34 AM
Hey Kevin,
I recently had a cam lobe eat one of my tappets in my Triumph Rocket (it has the Carpenter Racing 240hp package installed). The cams had to be sent back out and re-grinded and most of my tappets replaced; and the damage was attributed to the Rotella T6 synthetic oil; that had the Zinc reduced in it (discovered this after the fact).
Although the Rocket is a flat tappet style engine; radical cams call for an oil high in Zinc and Phosphate (ZDDP) so I am currently now running Amsoil Heavy Duty Marine Synthetic (I have heavier clutch springs so don't have to worry about clutch plate slippage). After saying all of this, I have a question for you...
...what I wanted to ask you; is when you do the Cam package, do you recommend another oil with a higher level of ZDDP (Zinc and Phosphate) to prevent wear?
Wow....I'm a bit surprised at the T6 being found at fault here. I would think that synth should have enough zinc and molly phosphate to lube the cams properly. Most cam failures are directly related to hardening in billet cams, or break in with cast cams. I could potentially see how a crazy up ramp would limit contact, and promote excessive load, but a cam like that would loose significant bottom end power. However I do not pretend to be an expert with the Rocket motor.
All that said. The VM1 is far from radical in lift or ramp angles; when compared to a typical roller cam. Any quality motorcycle semi synth should easily handle the job.
Edited by kevinx 2013-06-15 4:53 PM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1109
| Who determined it was the T6 that was at fault? I have friends that run some fairly radical cams in Harley and in cars that use T6 without any problems. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1365
Central Maryland | kris1956 - 2013-06-16 7:06 AM
Who determined it was the T6 that was at fault? I have friends that run some fairly radical cams in Harley and in cars that use T6 without any problems.
Isky Cams. They also have been recently seen other cams that wore down prematurely; due to the Rotella T6.
Edited by willtill 2013-06-16 11:31 AM
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Cruiser
Posts: 231
Desert Hot Springs (Palm Springs area), CA | Since I use Rotella, I just had to Google this topic. It seems that the "reduction" in zinc is rumor. Here is one person who actually analysed: http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=206230 |
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Visionary
Posts: 1365
Central Maryland | Good find. if the analysis was accurate. I can only go by what was told to me by Carpenter Racing and what Isky told them. I have since chosen not to use Rotella T6 anymore; due to the damage that the upper end of my Rocket had sustained. Why chance it twice? |
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Cruiser
Posts: 79
Louisville, KY | Hey if anyone decides to do a cam party in Kentucky I would be interested.
Actually a separate page on the site listing people wanting to do cams by location might be a good idea so we could get groups of like minded people together. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | kin52 - 2013-06-16 3:30 PM
Hey if anyone decides to do a cam party in Kentucky I would be interested.
Actually a separate page on the site listing people wanting to do cams by location might be a good idea so we could get groups of like minded people together.
Have a person that can do Kentucky. Need a couple more...... |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | kin52 - 2013-06-16 3:30 PM
Hey if anyone decides to do a cam party in Kentucky I would be interested.
Actually a separate page on the site listing people wanting to do cams by location might be a good idea so we could get groups of like minded people together.
Have a person that can do Kentucky. Need a couple more...... |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | JS5Owner - 2013-06-16 12:29 PM
Since I use Rotella, I just had to Google this topic. It seems that the "reduction" in zinc is rumor. Here is one person who actually analysed: http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=206230
That is a little misleading (actually, a lot). The 1275PPM is in line with current standards, so it is "not reduced"--by current standards.
ZDDP is a hot topic on the MG forums I frequent. The MG Midgets and MGBs haven't been produced since 1980. They use flat tappet cams. The oil specifications of the day required a lot more ZDDP ( about 1800 PPM) than today's formulations, which were mandated by the EPA (through the back door) to reduce the Zinc and Phosphorus (ZDDP) levels with the advent of the mandated catalytic convertors, which came on line with the EPA mandated unleaded gas. Too much ZDDP plugs up the catalytic convertors. Since then, the ZDDP levels have been much lower, so by the new standards, the ZDDP is not reduced. That 2012 vintage bottle of oil meets the newer standards, so it's "not reduced"--unless you compare it to the older standards. It's not rumor. The author of that post just drew the wrong conclusion because he didn't do all his research.
Several companies sell "break in oil" which has a higher level of ZDDP and is meant to be used to break in a newly rebuilt engine or new cams. There are also specialty oils for the classic cars that have higher levels of ZDDP, such as Amsoil Z-Rod, or Summit Racing Oil, which has ZDDP levels of 1800. You can also buy ZDDP additives to add to current 1200 PPM oils.
You can also buy a high ZDDP content assembly lube for the purpose of breaking in a new flat tappet cam. Once broken in, the cams will survive on current specification oil, including Rotella T6. The new cams typically suffer damage in the first few minutes if the ZDDP level is too low. Once burnished in, they can get by on the lower levels present in today's oils.
It would appear that the Isky cams need a lot more ZDDP for break in purposes, and they've failed to advise the customer of that, but they've chosen to lay the blame on the Rotella oil.
Ronnie |
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Visionary
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Central Maryland | Ronnie,
That was a very good post. I have some further questions to Carpenter Racing... due to what you have discussed. Currently after cam replacement (they) have refilled my Rocket with Joe Gibb's XP30 racing oil and have told me to dump it and go with the Amsoil Heavy Duty Marine Synthetic (which I had inadvertently misstated in my initial earlier post... I was told to run that for 500-1000 miles and then dump it for the Amsoil).
We had a huge discussion about this issue on the R3owners.com forum... and it is very hard to discern blame upon what caused it... the cam work or the Rotella oil. I do have to say that my Rocket's engine was good to go; until I changed out the oil and filled it back up with the Shell Rotella T6... then the problems started about a thousand miles later.
So... in light of what I have experienced.... I'd rather go with a different oil... other that Rotella T6... for my own peace of mind. I don't want to spend another 1K on repairs again. |
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Visionary
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Jasper, MO | willtill - 2013-06-16 4:20 PM
Ronnie,
That was a very good post. I have some further questions to Carpenter Racing... due to what you have discussed. Currently after cam replacement (they) have refilled my Rocket with Joe Gibb's XP30 racing oil and have told me to dump it and go with the Amsoil Heavy Duty Marine Synthetic (which I had inadvertently misstated in my initial earlier post... I was told to run that for 500-1000 miles and then dump it for the Amsoil).
We had a huge discussion about this issue on the R3owners.com forum... and it is very hard to discern blame upon what caused it... the cam work or the Rotella oil. I do have to say that my Rocket's engine was good to go; until I changed out the oil and filled it back up with the Shell Rotella T6... then the problems started about a thousand miles later.
So... in light of what I have experienced.... I'd rather go with a different oil... other that Rotella T6... for my own peace of mind. I don't want to spend another 1K on repairs again.
I don't blame you and if you've found an oil that works, then obviously go with it.
I used to rebuild a lot of engines (too old and don't have the ambition anymore) and I've seen a lot of cam failures. The damage is done early on in the break in period, but often doesn't become apparent right away. As the miles accumulate, the cam lobes continue to wear down to the point where engine performance is compromised, and then the owner realizes something is wrong. By then, it's hard to figure out what caused it.
I'm not pushing the Rotella--just trying to understand what happened.
Just out of curiosity, were new lifters installed with the new cam? They are a solid lifter/flat tappet motor aren't they? I'm not up on the particulars of the R3 motors.
I think I would have used the Joe Gibbs BR30 oil for the break in instead of the Joe Gibbs XP30 racing oil.........
Ronnie
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Visionary
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Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Im with Ronnie.. Most cam wear is caused by improper break in of cast cams. Takes thousands of miles before the wear becomes noticeable, and either noise increases or loss of power rear their ugly heads. Due to the problem of warping, and not penetrating the operating surfaces. Cast cams use the engine friction, and oil temp to harden; as they can not be hardened out of a motor. If you do not break them in with low load; they will fail. Those that have been to my cam parties are all familiar with the owner participation portion of the job. Though the last couple of batches have been billet, and did not require break in. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 79
Louisville, KY | Hey Kevin, I'm definitely interested in getting the cams done can you pm me the info for your guy in Kentucky? |
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Cruiser
Posts: 244
| Chuck: If you get a party sheduled I sure like to know. I won't do mine till March of 2014 when my warrenty runs out. In Louisille, (PRP area) |
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Cruiser
Posts: 79
Louisville, KY | Yeah I'll let you know.
I already have the 1/4 turn throttle, Lloyds top filter, PC-V, Autotune, and Ness Big Honkers.
The bike runs great but cams will make it even better.
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Cruiser
Posts: 59
Austin Texas Yaaaalll | I am up for a Texas install the next time one comes around. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 142
| put me down for the next cam party ! in TEXAS 
cheer!
Edited by lova 2013-06-26 1:14 PM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1109
| That's three in Texas. When I close the deal on the shop I'll post it. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Like I said. I dont need much more then a single car garage. Let's do this thing! |
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Visionary
Posts: 2118
Pitt Meadows, BC Canada | DO IT !!! Best $$$ you'll ever spend on your ViVi !!!!!!!!!!
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1109
| Thanks Don, from what I've read and talked to others including yourself,you're dead on. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 52
DeRidder, LA | I'm in SW Louisiana, if the Cam Party in Texas isn't too far away and I can get away from work I'd love to get in. My question is, what do/would I need to show up to the party with? Estimated total cost including parts and labor? I have to start prepping the boss........ |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1066
Peru, IN | You pay for it upfront, not when you get to the party. It's about $1450 for cams, top filter, fuel processor, timing wheel and labor. No dyno time but I haven't heard anyone who's had Kevin do cams say that they needed it. You show up to the party with your bike. That's it. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Monkeyman - 2013-06-30 3:10 PM
You pay for it upfront, not when you get to the party. It's about $1450 for cams, top filter, fuel processor, timing wheel and labor. No dyno time but I haven't heard anyone who's had Kevin do cams say that they needed it. You show up to the party with your bike. That's it.
About covers the answer. Parts are paid up front to secure a spot. Labor is paid on completion. Parts are just under $1050, and labor runs $400 |
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Visionary
Posts: 2118
Pitt Meadows, BC Canada | ..... But - he does it for the LOVE! Right, Kevin ???
Barely covers his expenses, but he gets to meet smart asses like ME !
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | donetracey - 2013-07-01 3:04 PM
..... But - he does it for the LOVE! Right, Kevin ???
Barely covers his expenses, but he gets to meet smart asses like ME !
I do it as much for the meeting as for the money. If I won the lottery. I would quit my job, but I would continue cam parties.......
Edited by kevinx 2013-07-01 3:28 PM
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Cruiser
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DeRidder, LA | Now just to sell it to the wife, but I'm saying I'm a go for a Dallas party. 6 hours away isn't too bad. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1109
| That's the beauty of being single, no one to ask lol. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | To clarify my parts list is
VM1 cams
Timing gear
Top filter
VFC3 controller |
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Cam Install DIY ?