space_cwboy - 2008-07-19 10:53 PM The linked brakes are far more than what I need to help me make a decision. I've been riding for 34 years, and have never had ABS on a motorcycle. Yes, I've had them on cars, and they have helped immensely when we drove in the snow, but since I never drive in the snow on the Vision, I just don't need it. Those of us that have ridden for years, and are still in one piece to share experiences, know that you must ride a motorcycle differently than you drive a car. You need to be more aware, you need to give yourself more "pad" if you want to keep the shiny side up and the rubber side down. To me, it is far more important to keep current on taking an advanced motorcycle safety class, to keep your brain trained on how to instantly react when something goes wrong, either with your bike, or someone coming into the path you are taking on your bike. I've been able to safely pull to the side of the road when riding two up, traveling 65-70mph, and having a blowout. I've been able to instantly identify my safest escape route when some bozo who doesn't know how to use rear view mirrors suddenly is occupying my lane, and in another 1/2 second, the actual space I'm riding in. Just my 2 cents, but if you feel you absolutely need ABS on your motorcycle, then maybe you need some additional training, or you should keep driving on four wheels.

SC this is a hot topic no doubt and it seems to be born out of the laden down tourer folk. You know the type that uses their bike as their car and when it doesn't all fit, it is time to get a trailer. Now, number one, I'm not against doing all of this, because I've got my sight set on getting the trailer hitch and pulling it when my better half wants to take a long trip. Me, I'll take a few bags on the bike. But one thing I take note of and you hit it on the head, is knowing your situation every single second you are aboard. I find that riding helps me exercise focus, something that I normally have trouble with. On the bike, I'm focused on the situation at hand, always looking for the out. I took the MSF for the first time in 24 years and found it to be very refreshing and informative. Anyone who rides should at least take the ERC, just for the fun of it if for nothing else. Even if you do it for the fun of it, you will be amazed at something you thought you were doing right, was really wrong. With all that said, please do not put ABS on my bike, I don't want it nor need it. The day that I have to allow the bike to do my thinking for me, it is time to get off of it and got back to jeepin'. I know I'll get great justified backlash over my comments, fueled with tons of research and examples, but as with you SC, I'm with you.

Ooops, a few more words - I was talking to a man when I stopped by to see an Indian at a shop and he admired my Vision. He got on me though and said I had to get a trailer because putting bags on the bike took away for the dynamics of the ride. He's an old Harley rider and has many, many miles under his belt across the country. We didn't talk ABS, but I felt I was learning from old school and respect that with a great respect. He said he didn't care what anyone rode, we are in the same brotherhood. My sentiments exactly. Peace out.

bigfoot - 2008-07-19 8:50 PM Having just witnessed my buddy going down on his Valk because he locked up the front brakes for a total skid of 4 feet, I think all touring bikes should at least offer ABS. We were 40 miles into a 750 mile "Circle Lake Erie" trip when he went down and broke his collarbone and two ribs, thus ending our long planned trip. My current bike has ABS and it has saved my butt more than once in the 12,000 I put on it in the last year. The Vision not having ABS is the only thing keeping me from buying it.

Bigfoot, I got a head of myself. Truly, sorry to hear of you friend going down, that is never a good thing, but it is good that he "walked" away with a few broken bones.

I'm curious on the Valk as I had a friend who had one and I thought of buying it at one time. Beautiful bike, however, he too took it off the road because of brakes locking on a hard turn that he saw that he was losing. Now, bikes go down everyday, but I'm wondering if this is a Valk thing?

Well wishes for your friend.

Great discussion. I really wonder if there are clear stats on motorcycles with ABS verses non-ABS on fatalities and so on. I do read that Motorcycle fatalities are rising, but so is the ridership, so I expect a correlation there. There are also many folk who buy a motorcycle just for the fun of it without a true conscience of just how dangerous they are. I do see that the more effort is applied to make something safer, the more accidents occur. This may only be a perception, and nothing more. But without thorough research and analysis, we are only saying what we believe to be true. So given some basic assessment of what I read here is one simple conclusion I come to.

1) Newer Motorcycles are equipped with ABS.

2) Motorcycle accidents are an all-time high.

So from that I can blame ABS for the rise.

However, again, after reading I find that more people are buying motorcycles are ignoring safety courses and enjoying their new "hobby". Also, more states have relaxed the helmet laws, which does seem to have a direct correlation to fatalities as well. No mention of ABS and fatalities.

So with this, my conclusion is:.

1) Take a safety course to learn how to ride and react 

2) Ride like one false move may mean my life.

3) Ride like no one ever sees me.

4) Ride looking for the next hazard and the out.

5) Wear safety gear.

To me, these all seem to be proven measures to survive a ride and/or accident and increase your chance of riding again.

Happy Motoring!

Pollolittle, that was my point, show me some stats as to whether ABS works well on a motorcycle verses safety courses. I can agree that with a Safety course and familiarization of ABS that would decrease fatalities, but ABS without training can give a false sense of security to an inexperience rider with disasterous results. When someone tells me about them getting a motorcycle my first question "what is your experience in riding one?" Most are very little, so I suggest they take a safety course that provides a motorcycle and then get a smaller, inexpensive bike to ride for a least a year before moving up.

If my next world-class touring motorcycle came with ABS I would still get it and learn to ride it, but that is many years down the road.

pollolittle - 2008-07-22 9:28 AM Oh, you had a point, My sincere apologies to all the little pygmies bunnies in South America. As can brakes without training! You can have your SANE token back! I had a brief moment of clarity of my own and I appreciate the use of your token. How many miles, Chris?

17,200 miles with only practice panic stops. The dealer had it 3 weeks while they were "waiting" to hear back from Victory on some warrentee issues when I took it for the 15k service. However, they let me have back just before the 4th, when they finally finished the service. Still waiting on Victory. I figured I lost at least 1k, so I've got some making up to do. I might have to come down to see you to get my token. Its a good 10 hour flight in the Vision.

bigfoot - 2008-07-23 11:56 AM The Motorcycle Safety Foundation has this to say on their site: "Two technical developments have sought to simplify braking control and provide more effective braking. Linked braking slows both wheels with a single control. Anti lock braking systems (ABS) allow the rider to apply maximum braking force without fear of wheel lock-up and the resulting loss of control, providing the bike is not leaned over. Under many pavement conditions, anti lock brake systems allow the rider to stop a motorcycle more rapidly while maintaining steering control even during situations of extreme, panic braking. Although incidental and first-hand experience indicates either of these systems can be effective in countering the problems faced by a motor-cyclist in a panic stop, we know of no research that shows how they perform in the field compared with similar bikes fitted with standard brake systems. 

Thanks for the information bigfoot! Based on this one line alone "providing the bike is not leaned over." brings to me great concern and demands yet another level of training to handle your motorcycle if it is equipped with ABS. What will happen if I'm in a lean and brake to what I would be accustommed to if I had ABS? I know how to brake with linked brakes in many situations and can maintain control as long as I can, but doesn't mean I would totally avoid an accident as with anyone. Would a lean and a hard brake with ABS provide a worse outcome than one equipped with linked brakes? To me that is a burning question. When riders first bought an ABS equipped bike, did they go to a special training course to know how to react with this technology. Given the "difference" it seems there would be an emphasis on this. At the MSF ERC there was no mention that I recall. All I remember was an exercise to stop quickly without locking up.

I might be misguided here, but I started riding a 750 Custom that had total independant brakes. When I got the '84 GoldWing I found out it had linked brakes, and was mad that it did. I was trained to know when and how to use my front and rear brakes and even did a real world lock up and kept it up right the whole time. When all was said and done, I believe I was very close to being severlly messed up because I stopped literialy within 6 inches of a stopped car from 45mph. Now with linked brakes I had to figure out how the bike would react with this new method. I grew accustomed to the linked brakes because I had too. If the Vision had ABS as standard, well I would have to get use to that too, whether I liked it or not. My plan is always a forward motion though it is necessary to stop, or slow down sometime, I just don't feel I need linked brake or ABS to do that. My primary concern is growing reliant on the "safety" equipment while being less vigilent because of it. All I heard when I got my first motorcycle was "those things are dangerous and you'll get killed." My target from there was to "master" riding, keeping in mind this thing is very dangerous.

This discussion really is great because I hope all the readers will take heed to the level of danger they are exposing themselves to. When i first started riding I actually heard "experienced" bikers say "you better know how to lay 'er down." I played that through my mind a zillion time trying to figure exactly how do you do a control lay down. Given facts, and really thinking about that, it is not a wise thing to do. The wiser thing to do is to find the easiest out to avoid body and property damage, especially to ones self, albeit that it be a straight brake. But given all of this, and my apologies for repeating this, does the use of ABS prove to be safe, or are manufacturers selling perception? Sure, there is the old video, but that is a snapshot in a controlled environment. We have stats to say seatbelts save lives, but I don't see that same substantiation for motorcycle ABS. Also, how about doing a real video on someone who knows how to brake without it locking up on wet surfaces. My guess is the the guy on the non-ABS brake bike rides an ABS bike all the time so he doesn't know how to brake without ABS. I ride in the rain and I don't lock up and I've had to stop fairly quickly at times.

I hand over the mike to....

People have been killed by airbags and trapped by seatbelts but the positives far outweigh the negatives.  ABS is the same thing.  You can find people who will say it didn't work for them in a certain situation but in 99% of the cases it is used in, it is better.  I notice that the riders who have had ABS on a bike and wouldn't go back outweigh the ones who preferred the old style 100:1 (that's probably conservative). 

I've had the brakes on my Connie lock up on a wet road pulling up to an intersection at less than 10 mph.  I didn't go down but it sure put my heart in my throat.  I like the idea of being able to lock down on the brakes and still steer through a situation.

If you've never ridden a bike with ABS I don't think you have a lot of credibiltiy to say which is better.  I personally like the linked brakes on the Vision but if I had $1400 and had to choose between reverse or ABS, I'd go ABS in a heartbeat.  Every ABS story I've read sounds more like "I wouldn't be here if it weren't for the ABS." than "It sucks.  I wish I had my old brakes back."

90% of American riders don't take motorcycle safety courses and until that changes they need all the help they can get.

Chris,

You have totally valid points.  I've ridden a couple of bikes with ABS but have never owned one.  The closest I've come to a wreck was when a little old lady in a Crown Vic pulled out of a side street in my neighborhood without looking.  I stopped about 6" from her drivers door as she slammed on her brakes when she saw me.  I could have stopped about 3 feet short but ran it in tight while going to the high beams to scare the crap out of her.  It was about 35mph on a dry road and ABS wouldn't have made a difference.  On dry pavement test riders can often stop shorter without ABS. 

Where I see it helping me is when conditions are less than perfect.  I ride the Vision in much lousier weather than ever before.  Just because I've never locked up the brakes doesn't mean I won't.  With ABS, I can't lock it up on a wet road.  That is a nice safety net.

The accident/fatality numbers will only get worse as more bikes and cars hit the road.  ABS or not.

exharleyrider - 2008-07-23 5:19 PM i guess that makes me a moron, a liar and and delusional. hope younever have to lay it down on purpose. crow tastes bad.

XHR, I take it that you've put it down "on purpose." First, if you have, I'm glad you survived. Second, I think as a biker we learn a lot along the way, and really, most of us have a different outlook on life. So doing whatever we thought was the best and survived, makes us anything but a moron, liar or delusional, but it sounds you were describing me, cause I can fit those categories at any given moment. I'm an ignorant liar, but a bonifide, card carrying moron who is often delusional. I don't consider myself any sort of expert rider and statistically at greater risk of an accident than probably most on this forum. I've got maybe a total of 6 years of riding in a 24 year time frame, though I have carried my M endorsement for that entire time. Out of those six years I might have 140,000 miles, maybe. So the average of that would be about 5,800 miles a year, or that of an average rider. But I would say the one thing that we should all have is respect for what we do. I jumped out of a perfectly good airplane about 65 times in my Army career and each time I had a tremendous amount of respect up to the very end. Every mile I ride on my bike, I have a tremendous amount of respect for each mile. I learn from everyone who rides. So can you tell us about your laydown? If not so sweat, or you can PM me, I'm curious. 

And it goes on. This is one of those things that will naturally take on a majority to have as a "safety feature". I really don't want to discount the good ABS has to offer, but I'm with Rainmaker, don't give it to me for the sake of giving it to me. If I were to have a series of close calls, or lock ups or anything else that would make be seriously question the notion of riding, I believe I would park it, no I would sell it. The Vision is the first bike I've owned that makes riding a true joy. I love to ride and do so everyday, 365 days a year, yes, even in Virginia.

I find in this world there are many things that gives one a preceived notion of benefit. I can open a can of worms here, but vitamins are one of those things. It is a billion dollar industry that serves little purpose. Eating healthy is the way to go, people can believe if they are taking vitamins it is a substitute to eating healthy, but I believe that vitamins offer little or no benefit whatsoever. Yet, we were told growing up to "take your vitamins." I do, everyday, by eating vegatable, drinking real juice and so on. Do I eat perfect, no. Is my cholesterol through the roof? Yes. But so is my dad's and he's 80. We have a family history of high cholestarol and long life. So, should I take a cholesterol medicene that has an arm long list of side-affects to include serious health issues, or do I continue marching forward as the rest of my family and "take my chance" with high cholesterol. I'll take my chances and attempt to eat healthy regularly. By the way, my BP is still at a healthy level and I'm quickly approaching 50. I take ZERO medication, though my wife thinks I should be on for mental reasons.

So, now that I rambled and stirred a pot, back to the subject of ABS. I trust the sturdiness and the handling of my machine, but riding to the best of my ability, which includes some formentioned focus points, is what I need to rely on. I'm sure ABS will be forced upon me sometime or another if I continue to ride, I have them in my jeeps without a choice. But I will not put my trust in ABS in compromise to my riding ability. When I do, it will be time to park the 'er and get back to four-wheeling. I rest.