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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 49
Madison/Huntsville, AL | I know the basics - high flow air filter, faster flowing exhaust, and an appropriate EFI calibration = a 'stage 1 kit' or some such. But, What the heck is this... http://www.phatperformanceparts.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=V-5160&click=37735 Where does that extra filter fit and what does it do? Next, I'm partial to the D&D slip-ons, but how many options are out there for a '13 vision? There are myriad slip-on mufflers out there with 'universal fit'. Are any of those candidates? Third, the EFI Calibration. Does our friendly neighborhood Vic dealer have anything other than 2-3 fixed flashes? In other words, If I start mixing and matching Vic performance air filter, Ness filter, Ness dual filters, L1S1, Ness slip-ons, D&D slip-ons, and goodness knows what other options are available, can I get the motor properly tuned? TIA | |
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Tourer
Posts: 576
, IA | In front replaces paper one 2on top under dash need a pc or vfciii fuel.controler | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 50
| There is an access plate under the console, it can be replaced with the second filter. Lloyd's top filter is best IMO
D&D are good exhaust mine are on order. Lloyd and Rylan Voss have told me they will show nice gains. Don't bother with stage1 from victory get a fuel controller instead.
Also suggest Lloyd's adjustable timing wheel. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1229
Rancho Cucamonga, CA | Don't waste your money on a factory ECU flash, use that money for a Lloydz ECU flash or a fuel controller instead. The Lloydz flash will improve AFRs and extend your rpm range, also eliminating the 'top speed' governor. A fuel controller will handle the airflow upgrades your doing better plus any you do in the future as well. A VFCIII fuel controller from lloydz is the most cost effective way to increase performance. A PCV fuel controller from Dynojet will give more 'fine tuning' options. It also lets you go past the rpm limit as well. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| thats a good price for the two. When you get pipes add Lloydz timing wheel you'll feel like you have a new bike.
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 49
Madison/Huntsville, AL | Thanks for all the input. Are there any exhaust options out there besides the Ness Big Honkers, Victory's L1S1, and the D&D Boss'?
Edited by tmoore 2013-10-18 10:02 PM
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New user
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I'm just posting to say that this is an amazing attitude to provide information. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | tmoore - 2013-10-18 9:50 PM
Thanks for all the input. Are there any exhaust options out there besides the Ness Big Honkers, Victory's L1S1, and the D&D Boss'?
There are several. However, do your research.
The VFCIII will work well with any of those you mentioned. So will the PCV.
The VFCIII works very well with the stock exhaust (which is quiet, but not restrictive on a 106) and any aftermarket exhaust that emulates the torque curve of the stock exhaust.
Some aftermarket exhausts can introduce peaks and valleys into the torque curve, and then you NEED the more expensive PCV and dyno tuning to compensate.
Lloydz VM1 cams were designed to work with the stock exhaust. Go to his blog or his website and read his article on the "black art of exhaust design".
If you want a different sound, then change your exhaust. If you're really after more power, then changing the exhaust system is a poor use of your performance dollars. These bikes respond to more air flow in (top filter), more fuel in (fuel controller), and better flow management (cams). You can also improve the low end with Lloydz adjustable timing wheel. Lloydz can also reflash your ECU with an optimized fuel and timing baseline, and raise your rev-limiter, and eliminate your top speed limiter all at the same time. MUCH better than any "Stage X" reflash. The stock exhaust has been shown by Lloyd to flow plenty good enough to produce 135 HP on a 116 build.
Ronnie
Edited by rdbudd 2013-10-19 12:55 AM
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 49
Madison/Huntsville, AL | Great info Ronnie. Thanks
"...Lloydz can also reflash your ECU..." Can he do that without installing a VFCIII or power commander? I thought only dealers could 'flash', and even then they have the 2-3 flash configurations. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | tmoore - 2013-10-19 2:13 PM
Great info Ronnie. Thanks
"...Lloydz can also reflash your ECU..." Can he do that without installing a VFCIII or power commander? I thought only dealers could 'flash', and even then they have the 2-3 flash configurations.
Loyd can re-flash your computer, and give it a little more timing, as well as a 6200rpm limiter in ALL gears. It will require some type of fuel controller; as there are so many available configurations. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | tmoore - 2013-10-19 1:13 PM
Great info Ronnie. Thanks
"...Lloydz can also reflash your ECU..." Can he do that without installing a VFCIII or power commander? I thought only dealers could 'flash', and even then they have the 2-3 flash configurations.
Kevin already answered, and is right.
Lloydz put a 6400 RPM limit in ALL six gears into my ECU (unlike the varying rev-extend you get with a PCV, depending on what gear you are in). The ONLY downside to having Lloydz do it is that you send him your ECU and wait a couple of weeks to get it back. Good winter project. Darn well worth it IMHO. It could be used by itself, but you'll get the biggest benefit when used with a fuel controller and LLoydz cams, along with a top filter. Do the other stuff and send your ECU to Lloyd when the snow is deep. It's plug and play and will not require any further tuning.
A better way to look at it is when you get Lloydz cams, a top filter, and a fuel controller, the rear wheel power increases from around 80-82 HP to around 110-115 HP. The stock cams start to fade after about 4500 RPM. Lloydz cams keep pulling HARD all the way past 6000 RPM, actually getting stronger after 4500 RPM. The stock rev-limiter of the stock ECU cuts your motor at 5250 RPM in first gear and 5500 RPM in 2 through 5 gears, and 4550 RPM (120 MPH) in 6th gear. The stock ECU (even with a factory "Stage" re-flash) keeps these limits intact, and really holds you back. If you're intent on showing somebody your taillights, the cammed Victory 106 likes to be shifted at 6000 RPM for maximum acceleration. So, you need to be able to rev a little past 6000, or the darn rev-limiter kicks in just before the bike feels like it wants to shift. With the stock 5500 rev-limit, it kicks in just as the real fun is starting. Lloydz 6400 limit lets you get the most out of your performance mods.
If you decide to get a PCV instead, you can ask Dyno Jet for a code for a 1000 RPM increase of the stock rev-limit. This will get you 6250 in 1st gear, 6500 in 2nd though 5th gears, and 5050 in 6th gear. The standard 500 RPM rev-extend option of the PCV leaves a little to be desired, and kicks in just a bit too early, lowering those limits I just referenced by 500 RPM each. It really hurts in first gear, and kicks in just before the optimum shift point in the other gears. If you're going that route, get the 1000 RPM increase.
The peak HP and TQ numbers won't change much with Lloydz re-flash installed, BUT, the power lasts much longer in each gear, so the overall performance is increased. The re-flash also has a better timing curve to compensate for the slight loss of low end power of the VM1 cams. It ends up with about the same power down low as stock, but MUCH more power in the mid-range and upper range.
I do not have it on my bike, but reports are that Lloydz adjustable timing wheel adds a little more to the bottom end power too, especially if you have the stock ECU (with, or without the PCV). Lloydz ECU re-flash adds 2 degrees already, so the benefit of the adjustable wheel may not be as much if you have Lloydz ECU already.
If you're familiar with the GL1800 Goldwing, you know that most dynos show them at about 96 to 101 HP at the rear wheel, and their rev-limiter is set at 6500 RPM. A Vision with Lloydz cams, a top filter, a VFCIII, and Lloydz ECU re-flash (my setup) is a little faster than the GL1800 in a drag-race, in passing power, and on top speed. Not a whole lot faster, but enough so that there is no doubt about it. That's with the stock exhaust.
The kicker is that on long trips, my Vision consistently beats the Goldwing on fuel economy too. Our tank range is about the same, even though the Goldwing holds 6.7 gallons to the Vision's 6 gallons.
Given where you live, I would strongly suggest that you give Kevin Cross (KevinX on this forum) a call over at Polaris of Gainesville, Gainesville, Florida, and set up a time to get your bike to him. Take his advice on performance mods. Don't try to second guess him just because your buddies said, "but, you need.............."
Just so you know, you can literally ride your bike into his shop, and leave a few (like 3) hours later with the kind of performance I'm talking about. Maybe better. Mine's never been on a dyno in it's life, but it's still a half second quicker and four MPH faster in the quarter mile, faster in passing power, and faster on top speed than a GL1800, and gets better fuel economy to boot. Maybe I should dyno tune it sometime.
Ronnie
Edited by rdbudd 2013-10-19 5:55 PM
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 49
Madison/Huntsville, AL | Thanks for all the input. I'm learning a little...I think. Let's review and refine.  For starters I'm going to install the D&D Boss slip-ons. I appreciate the bit about stock being un-restrictive, but I do want the sound as well as the look of some black ones. Next, Lloydz top filter and a Ness(?) front filter. Seems to me opening up the airflow is a no-brainer; more like fixing a restricted system than adding a performance enhancement. MHO/irrelevant I guess. This is where I need smart people...let me know where my ignorance pokes through here... I'm getting the Lloydz ATS. I need as much low end torque as I can get, and this is the only way to get it at 1500(?) - 2500 RPM. My early shifting is prevalent enough it could probably be characterized as a bad habit. I think I'm self conscious about pipe noise when tooling around slow in neighborhoods and parking lots. Now what about a Lloydz flash, a VFC, and the PC-V... Kevin already shot down what I thought a Lloydz flash would mean, but just to review, having Lloyd re-flash my computer won't optimize everything in one fell swoop. I'll still need a fuel controller (?) There's something I don't understand because I'm thinking what would be the point if the flash is not programming a complete fuel map. Need help there. Enter the PC-V. I can use this to tweak both timing and fuel, as well as increase the rev limits, no? Does this give you the ability to program the equivalent of any computer flash? As for the VFC-III, can I save a few dollars, relative to the PC, and forgo the timing adjustments? Remember I'm going to have the ATS already advancing 3-4 degrees. Finally, the VFC and a flash from Lloydz would optimize everything. It's just the cost I need to look into. Thanks for your help | |
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Tourer
Posts: 573
Central Illinois | tmoore - 2013-10-22 5:37 PM Thanks for all the input. I'm learning a little...I think. Let's review and refine. For starters I'm going to install the D&D Boss slip-ons. I appreciate the bit about stock being un-restrictive, but I do want the sound as well as the look of some black ones. Next, Lloydz top filter and a Ness(?) front filter. Seems to me opening up the airflow is a no-brainer; more like fixing a restricted system than adding a performance enhancement. MHO/irrelevant I guess. This is where I need smart people...let me know where my ignorance pokes through here... I'm getting the Lloydz ATS. I need as much low end torque as I can get, and this is the only way to get it at 1500(?) - 2500 RPM. My early shifting is prevalent enough it could probably be characterized as a bad habit. I think I'm self conscious about pipe noise when tooling around slow in neighborhoods and parking lots. Now what about a Lloydz flash, a VFC, and the PC-V... Kevin already shot down what I thought a Lloydz flash would mean, but just to review, having Lloyd re-flash my computer won't optimize everything in one fell swoop. I'll still need a fuel controller (?) There's something I don't understand because I'm thinking what would be the point if the flash is not programming a complete fuel map. Need help there. Enter the PC-V. I can use this to tweak both timing and fuel, as well as increase the rev limits, no? Does this give you the ability to program the equivalent of any computer flash? As for the VFC-III, can I save a few dollars, relative to the PC, and forgo the timing adjustments? Remember I'm going to have the ATS already advancing 3-4 degrees. Finally, the VFC and a flash from Lloydz would optimize everything. It's just the cost I need to look into. Thanks for your help I think you may have it a bit out of sequence if you are doing one thing at a time due to budget. For immediate power at low RPM start out with the ATS. I have one and the low end power increase is dramatic. I have that6 same bad habit of shifting too soon but that is no longer an issue with the wheel installed. It is my only performance MOD. Pipes are for sound, not for performance on any reasonably unmodified engine. Intake mods tend to lean out your fuel/air mix so be careful with that unless you at least unplug the O2 sensors and better yet install a fuel controller.
The VFC systems are for significant other mods to pull things back together and make them play nice.
Edited by Oldman47 2013-10-22 6:42 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| skip the ecm reprogram you don't have the horse power for it.
do Lloydz fuel controller. Call Lloydz and ask where or if there is anyone that can dyno it. Even with the power commander you need the dyno an less you buy the v for aototune
if you don't buy controller your bike will run just fine. | |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 49
Madison/Huntsville, AL | Oldman47 --- "I think you may have it a bit out of sequence if you are doing one thing at a time due to budget. For immediate power at low RPM start out with the ATS....." --------------------- This is an 'all at once' deal for a new bike. If it were piece meal, I agree completely, the ATS would be first. --------------------- ".......The VFC systems are for significant other mods to pull things back together and make them play nice." -------------------- Which comes back to my real question...with the D&Ds, top and front performance filters, and an ATS, what do I need to make them play nice? | |
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