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Iron Butt
Posts: 725
Reno County, KS | I haven't even gotten home to throw on the latest assortment of chrome goodies and upgrades and I'm already planning my next spending spree (it's become an addiction with this thing). After I get back from my Route 66 trip in Sept., I'll be spending a lot of time in the shop (October I'll be offshore) waiting out the snows. I plan on tinkering with the performance end of things. I'll likely tweak the exhaust (past this St. 1 level 2 upgrade) and I'm not planning on taking the bike over 300 mi. for a remap every time. Right now I'm leaning towards the VFC III because it looks to be plug and play but I'd like to see some feedback between the 2. One of the things I'm also unsure about is if I'll need to reflash the ECM back to stock (before St.1, level 2) before adding either of the fuel controllers. As always any and all comments are welcome.
Thanks,
-Will |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 810
| Add the PowerCommander to your list. Ness is installing a lot of PowerCommanders which makes me believe they favor it over their onw branded Big Shot. The PowerCommander has more control capabilities over the VFC3 and the Big Shot. PowerCommander in Las Vegas is building up a library of custom map configurations for the Vision.
Also, for 2009, Victory is adding Stage 2 CAMs to the 106 engine for the Hammer and Jackpot. Some dealers are adding the State 2 CAMs to the Vision. You might want to consider this option as well. I am considering replacing my VFC3 with a PowerCommander, custom map and Stage 2 CAMs.
Sincerely, Tim
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Tourer
Posts: 353
| It's my understanding that the big shot is a copy of Lloyds design and doesn't have alot of support if you have an issue, Lloyd will actually help you over the phone or by email if you have issues with the VFC.
Kevinx, one of the resident Vic experts at thevmc.com says "biggest thing that I do NOT like about the PCIII is that it is based solely on engine RPM. It does not care weather you are accelerating, cruising, or burping the throttle. It always adds, or subtracts the same amount of fuel. The VFC is load based, and supplements the Vic map without re-writing the whole thing. Unless you have a poor engine package; you do not need a PCIII."
This can be found here>>>
http://forums.thevmc.com/bb/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=52399&posts=... |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 725
Reno County, KS | Tim:
I did not know that they had a PCIII Vision full release yet. I do like the idea that you just had with the warmed over cam + the PCIII. That would be an awesome performance gain, not to mention the exhaust lope you'd get to boot! If you decide to pull the trigger on the cam, please keep me posted.
tralphaz:
Lloydz customer support is a good point. I do recall a few posts that mention how great the customer support from Lloydz is. Plus it seems like Ness comes up with a new add on about the time someone else makes it and markets it under his companies name. What's up with that? Looking online, Lloydz has a pretty kick-a$$ performance package ($3500 ouch!). The dyno's look impressive too! |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 810
| FWIW, the Vision PowerCommander part number is #938-411. Ness in Las Vegas, PowerCommander in Las Vagas and Arizona Victory has been installing them (possibly others). You can also get custom maps made for your specific Vision configuration from PowerCommander in Las Vegas. They are building up a library of various Vision configurations.
Unfortunately, we do not have much Victory support out here in California (No Lloydz or KevinX in reach to tune our 50-state machines). Also what kit are you referring to from Lloydz? Is it for the Vision's 106ci or the 100ci ?
Tim
Edited by TimS 2008-09-01 11:27 PM
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Tourer
Posts: 548
Mount Vernon, WA United States | While a Power Commander has it's plus points, especially if you race, the VFC is designed specifically for Victory's and while tuning on a Dyno is essentially mandatory for a PCIII (I don't care what anyone tells you about the wonderful map they downloaded), the VFC is pretty easy to dial in without a Dyno. And Lloyd is no further than a phone or email away to assist if you need it.
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Iron Butt
Posts: 725
Reno County, KS | TimS - 2008-09-01 10:12 PM
. Also what kit are you referring to from Lloydz? Is it for the Vision's 106ci or the 100ci ?
Tim
This one from Lloydz site: "106 Performance stroker packages w/labor Starting @ $3450 + Shipping" One would probably save quite a bit of $ by doing the labor themselves but it's definitely NOT a project I would attempt alone.
110 Performance Stroker Packages w/labor Starting @ $4750 + Shipping Sounds cool too. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 810
| bigwill5150 - 2008-09-02 3:30 AM This one from Lloydz site: "106 Performance stroker packages w/labor Starting @ $3450 + Shipping" One would probably save quite a bit of $ by doing the labor themselves but it's definitely NOT a project I would attempt alone. 110 Performance Stroker Packages w/labor Starting @ $4750 + Shipping Sounds cool too. I believe those kits are for the 100ci engine, not Vision's 106 engine. Tim
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Iron Butt
Posts: 810
| Miles - 2008-09-01 11:24 PM the VFC is designed specifically for Victory's. The VFC3 was designed on the 49-state Victories, not the 50-state Victories. FWIW, Lloydz also sells the PowerCommander. Personally, I do not care which controller or no controller as long as it works better than what I currently have on a California bike which a phone call does not address.
Tim
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Iron Butt
Posts: 600
Linwood, MI | TimS - 2008-09-02 9:57 AM
FWIW, Lloydz also sells the PowerCommander
Sorry to hijack here, and please pardon my ignorance here, but who or what is this "FWIW" you keep mentioning? |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 810
| For What Its Worth
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Iron Butt
Posts: 725
Reno County, KS | Damn! That's only for the 100? Maybe they'll come out with something this year to build up the 106 since the Jackpot's out with it... |
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Visionary
Posts: 1324
So Cal | bigwill5150 - 2008-08-31 5:56 PM
I haven't even gotten home to throw on the latest assortment of chrome goodies and upgrades and I'm already planning my next spending spree (it's become an addiction with this thing). After I get back from my Route 66 trip in Sept., I'll be spending a lot of time in the shop (October I'll be offshore) waiting out the snows. I plan on tinkering with the performance end of things. I'll likely tweak the exhaust (past this St. 1 level 2 upgrade) and I'm not planning on taking the bike over 300 mi. for a remap every time. Right now I'm leaning towards the VFC III because it looks to be plug and play but I'd like to see some feedback between the 2. One of the things I'm also unsure about is if I'll need to reflash the ECM back to stock (before St.1, level 2) before adding either of the fuel controllers. As always any and all comments are welcome.
Thanks,
-Will
From what I read here, the VFC III requires disconnecting the O2 sensors. Does not sound like a good idea to me. In my opinion, O2 sensors are the best thing to happen to engine tuning including a 5 gas exhaust emissions anylizer.
The tech at my dealer told me the bigshot is plug and play. No diconnecting O2 sensor. Emissions tuning needs A/f ratio of 14.7:1 for the cat. to work at optimum efficiency. Performance tuning, A/F ratio in the high 13's works better. Most cats can handle a slightly richer mixture. Mainly because when it runs better you tend to run it harder. Which keeps the heat up in the cat.
Wide band O2 sensors are even more accurate, also more expensive. I dont think the Vision uses them.
Edited by cjnoho 2008-09-02 11:32 PM
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Cruiser
Posts: 77
| I'm gonna go through and just tidy up some areas here.
TimS is correct that we did not develope our units on 50 state bikes, however I can say we are back testing on the Vision and will be coming out with some engine packages to include Cams, Pistons and possibley a bigger motor kit. I feel we can achieve our needs with the 106 and get rid of all the symptoms that plague some of you Vision owners. We will be changing the programming on the VFC lll to accomadate some issues out there. These issues are related to but not solely based on the Exhaust leaks and artificial intake leaks on these bikes. At the VMC meet in the Mountains I was talking with a person and he brought up the backfiring issue, I said that MOST OF THESE GUYS DONT REALIZE THEY HAVE EXHAUST LEAKS AND UNTIL THEY'RE CURED THERE WONT BE ANY UNIT TO FIX THE PROBLEM. So with that we walked over to 4 Visions parked beside each other, We looked under all 4 and all 4 had an exhaust leak somewhere in the system. Combine this with what the IAC is doing and were fighting an up hill battle, Thats ok I like it that way.
There has also been some testing from KevinX on leaving the O2's hooked up while the VFC is attached and he has reported good results with getting rid of backfiring and cruise issues on the stubborn bikes. This maybe something some of you want to try and see if it cures your issues. There aren't 2 Visions that have worked the same on the Dyno during tuning and this also poses another problem not only for us but for companies like Dyno Jet that are making Maps for their Power Commanders. These maps will work on one bike but not the other, back to what were dealing with again.
Also from what I see the map or download that's in the bike does not matter! I've seen S1L2 bikes running leaner then others do and when a VFC was installed I had to add more fuel than the average.
Now to add to what cjnoho said about O2's. Keep this in mind. THE ONLY reason we have narrow band O2 Sensors on a bike is so that the manufacturer can meet the requirements set forth by the EPA. They are NOT there for ANY performance reason because there is NO performance to be gained by running a bike at 14.7/1 which is the middle road of the A/F that will cycle between 14.5 and 15.2/1 with 14.7 close to the middle. If the manufacturer was concerned about performance they would incorparate wide band sensors and have different fuel ratios at different throttle positions programmed into the PCU, but that just wont happen and we'll have to deal with the lean mixtures.
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | TimS - 2008-09-01 11:12 PM
FWIW, the Vision PowerCommander part number is #938-411. Ness in Las Vegas, PowerCommander in Las Vagas and Arizona Victory has been installing them (possibly others). You can also get custom maps made for your specific Vision configuration from PowerCommander in Las Vegas. They are building up a library of various Vision configurations.
Unfortunately, we do not have much Victory support out here in California (No Lloydz or KevinX in reach to tune our 50-state machines). Also what kit are you referring to from Lloydz? Is it for the Vision's 106ci or the 100ci ?
Tim
Part #938-511 does work on the Vision and we actually have a few maps for it. We have not officially endorsed as we have yet to make an install guide.
If you have any other questions please let us know. Thanks.
Dustin Schaller
Technical Support Manager
Dynojet Research
800-992-4993
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Iron Butt
Posts: 725
Reno County, KS | UPDATE: The new Powercommander that Dustin from Dynojet referred to is available. Quoted from an email he sent me yesterday:
"Part #19-006 for the Vision has just been released. If you have any other questions please let us know. Thanks."
Currently the website still reflects it's going to be available soon, so I'll bet that you'd have to call to order it. I'm going to call and check Monday to verify this is the case. Also I'm going to find out if they have found a way to integrate the Auto Tune module and it's associated wide band sensor on the Vision (or at least suggest a way). He didn't quite specify what it would work with or without, so I'm assuming that we probably can run it. From what I've been reading, the Auto Tune has made a respectable difference on and off the track. This is probably gonna cost quite a bit but it would be worth it (to me at least). I've been waiting for this for a long time and was just about to give up and pull the trigger on a VFCIII (which is still a fine choice, especially since we know we can run Lloydz cam grinds with it and it cancels decel popping while adding the needed fuel during demand).
Edited by bigwill5150 2009-05-30 11:49 AM
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | im curious to see what maps they will have on their website for the PowerCommander for the Vision |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | i just noticed that they (power commander) list the unit only for the 2009 model of vision... why?
http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/powercommander_v.aspx?...
Edited by Arkainzeye 2009-05-30 6:42 PM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 725
Reno County, KS | Yeah, when I emailed him I did state that I had a 2008 Vision. That's another question I need to see about Monday. What I quoted up there was all that was said about the unit. |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | Wow!! after reading about that autotuner feature i really want one.. there is soooo many features that thing has! Total control in Real time! you can even set at what A/F ratio you want the auto tuner to tune at! 21 Century technology for a 21 century motorcycle! I read the install instructions for the auto tuner and i do have a question about the size of the stock O2 sensor on out vision. on the powercommander page it gives you the size of the o2 sensor that comes with their unit.. im curious to see if it is a plug and play with the o2 sensor.. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 725
Reno County, KS | Called Dynojet during lunch and got some questions answered. P/N 19-006 is released for the Vision. Currently they have not tested it with 2008; therefore, they do not know if it will work with anything but 09's. I haven't heard anything about other fuel tuner part #'s only working for 08's or 09's, so I'm guessing it will work. Currently, only stock maps are available for the bike. The Autotune module is compatible with this setup. I don't THINK maps would matter much with the Autotune module. He said that you'd install it and then plug in your desired A/F ratio. The wideband sensors were said to be direct replacements for the Vision sensors. On page 3.42 of the service manual I see that there are (2) O2 sensors that would need to be replaced on the Vision. Price... (As if we didn't know it would be costly.) He said MSRP would be $369.00 for the PCV and another $369.00 for the Autotuner (I assumed the AT module would be $250.00 since that's what their website reflected). That doesn't include any of the optional display interfaces (I'd love to have the blue LED A/F meter). I'm pretty psyched about this so I'm gonna dig a bit more into soon. They can start taking orders Wednsday. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 64
Hot Springs Village, Arkansas | Just a question, Would it not be more cost effective to install the VFC and have my bike dyno'd (since every bike is different) then to pay $700++ in order to get a system to adapt to my particular motor? Am I missing something? Alan |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 725
Reno County, KS | I just got this follow up in my email in response to the call I made earlier today regarding 2008 applications:
"We are not supporting the installation of a PCV on any other year other than the 2009 models."
I still dunno if that means it won't work or they haven't tried. It's sounding a lot like they don't wanna drop it in an 08 for whatever reason. Not sure why. It would probably be a sweet mod for you 09 riders out there. Oh well, guess they're not gonna persue us in the Vision's market. I'm definitely sorry I waited this long to get this response. That was a bad gamble.
Big Al - 2009-06-01 11:49 AM
Just a question, Would it not be more cost effective to install the VFC and have my bike dyno'd (since every bike is different) then to pay $700++ in order to get a system to adapt to my particular motor? Am I missing something? Alan
Yeah; initially it would be cheaper. Everytime you tweak or mod it you'd have to dyno it again. For people like me that live nowhere close to a bike dyno, I have to make a hell of a trip everytime to boot. And god only knows when they would be able to get you in on the dyno. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 725
Reno County, KS | Screw all this. I just pulled the trigger on a VFCIII. Reading the literature, they look easy enough set up and I know Lloyd has an interest for this bike. This all kinda goes back to my "hit and run vendor" statement I made earlier in this thread. Dynojet may have the market in tuners but they sure as hell don't have customer support down. You know a company has outgrown it's usefulness when the reps can't answer questions about their own products before selling you one. What a confusing mess... Dynojet: (If you're reading this; and hopefully you are). This is what happens to your fan base when you drop the ball. It was interesting that you showed up to our forum and talked up your product for the Vision, it has most certainly been disappointing that you could not back up the talk. If that's the best we can expect from your company, I'll save my money and take and pass.
Thanks |
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New user
Posts: 3
Gahanna (Columbus) OH | I have the complete Ness fuel control system on my 09. I have no popping or backfiring. The Big Honkers sound great. I rode one with and one without the system back to back. The difference was noticeable in torque and hp. Haven't heard or rode any other systems. The dealership (Bairs in North Canton, OH) installed the system on my bike as a demo, it worked.
Chuck |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 600
Linwood, MI | All the systems mentioned here are probably pretty darn close in performance. To me, the biggest factor is personal attention. Lloyd has been working specifically on Vics for many years. He visits this forum quite a bit and has even written tech articles for us. He shows up and answers questions (as evidenced above) and does market research here to see what we want to see for our Visions and keeps us posted on updates, improvements and new products.
Kevin is a master Vic mechanic and has extensive knowledge of the VFC system. He is on here regularly interacting with us and answering just about any technical questions any of us has. Plus, he has stated that if we get four or five bikes together in an area that want the VFC/Cam package that he'll fly out and install for a very reasonable price.
Aside from the obligatory advertisment, how many of the other performance companies have interacted with us and answered questions here? How many have made the offer that Kevin has to do install parties? None that I know of.
Make mine Lloydz every time. I tend to support the companies and people that support me.
Edited by Rebel 2009-07-15 2:04 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | Good point. thats way last week i installed my Lloyds intake and not the Ness version.. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 277
Apopka, FL | So here is a question... Lloyd above stated that most Visions have exhaust leaks. Sorry, I am ignorant, but question #1- shouldn't this be a warranty issue? Question #2 - what has anyone done to correct the exhaust leak? Where is the leak usually? At the heads or at the header/muffler junction? |
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Tourer
Posts: 457
Green Bay, WI United States | First step in fixing an exhaust leak is installing the Lloydz header gaskets. Made my 03 TCD a dream to ride with no popping. From there tighten up the pipe to muffler junction. Make sure after you ride it with the new gasets and once cooled down just tighten the bolts slightly again to complete the leak free seal. One point I would like to make: I have the Lloydz fuel controller and like to adjust "Hotrod" a bit rich for special runs (Tomahawk Fall Ride) but be for warned that the MAP sensor does not like a lot of change so plan on replacing it once a year (in my experience @ $87) if you decide to adjust the fuel controller more than a couple of times. This may be different on some scoots but my check engine light came on at the last of 2010 and I am sure the MAP sensor will need replacing again.
Ride hard, ride fast, but above all - ride safe and free..... |
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Ness Big shot or Lloydz VFCIII and why?