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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 8
| I was stuck in traffic for about 20 mins today, and when the traffic freed up my bike would not accelarate as fast as it usually does, I vave a 2014 Vision. But i also noticed that once the motor hit 3000RPM it would rev really high and the gear indicator would show that the bike was in a lower gear than i had shifter it in to, but once it got below 3000RPM it would reve normally and show the correct gear on the inicator. What could be the problem here? |
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Cruiser
Posts: 73
| Sounds like clutch slip. Vics aren't known for great clutch packs, but mines been good for 70K+
Maybe you ought to change the oil, the last owner may have put non-JASO oil in it. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
Perry Hall, MD | Probably a good recommendation to look at the oil first.
Just to trouble shoot I would suggest that you don't get caught up in an oil debate right now (many can be found on this site). Rather, just change out to stock Vic semi-synthetic, if you're not already using it. Hope it fixes your problem. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 8
| I Changed the oil and it is still having the same problem. My bike only has 5700 Miles on it, so it is very hard for me to understand whey the clutch would go out so soon, this was the first time I actually rode the bike in traffic, and this happens? does the victory warrantee cover clutch issues? has anyone else experienced this same issue so soon? |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| every time you hold the clutch in your shorten the life of the plates. In stop an go traffic and on hot days get it into neutral.
In neutral and lever out your not stressing the plates.
If you stay away from synthetic oil you'll have less problems.
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
Perry Hall, MD | Sorry - can not answer warranty question, but I can not imagine the clutch is actually bad at 5700 miles. Look for other possible issues first. The service manual on troubleshooting clutch slippage or drag suggest a few things to look at.
PROBLEM POSSIBLE CAUSE PART(s) AFFECTED REPAIR RECOMMENDED
Clutch Slips Clutch Spring Weak Clutch Spring Replace
Contaminated hydraulic system Master or Slave cylinder Inspect
Clutch Spring Snap ring Loose or Broken Clutch Spring Snap ring Repair or
Replace as
Necessary
Pressure Plate Worn or Warped /Distorted Pressure Plate Replace
Clutch Plate(s) Worn or Warped/Distorted Driven Plates Replace
(possibly drive plates)
Clutch Lifter Mechanism Sticking Clutch Lifter Mechanism Repair
Engine Oil Level Low Oil Level Correct
Oil Additives Present in Oil or Oil Quality Replace oil &
Used Previously filter
(clutch plates
may need to
be replaced)
Dragging Clutch Clutch Lever, master cylinder or Master or Slave cylinder Inspect
(doesn?t disengage slave cylinder sticking
completely, creeping, Air in hydraulic system Master or Slave cylinder Inspect / Bleed
hard to find Neutral) Oil Additives Present in Oil or Oil Quality Replace oil &
Used Previously filter (clutch
plates may
need to be
replaced)
Oil Level Too High Oil Level Correct
Pressure Plate Worn or Warped/ Pressure Plate Replace
Distorted
Clutch Plate(s) Warped / Distorted Driven Plates (possibly drive Replace
plates)
Weak Clutch Spring(s) Clutch Springs Replace All
Edited by lennyb 2016-06-18 9:02 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | Clutch is NOT covered in warranty . Nor are brake pads and rotors and so on .... basically wear items are not cover no matter what the mileage ... they would move than likely blame it on you .
I still can't get over the fact they use the same clutch in the 106 900lbz vision that they did in the smaller engine 2003 Vegas which weights a lot less. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | johnnyvision - 2016-06-18 6:59 PM
If you stay away from synthetic oil you'll have less problems.
UMMM--NO. Don't blame synthetic oil categorically. Now if you put a synthetic, or even a non-synthetic oil in there that isn't the right one for the application, you might have some problems. They do make more than one type.
Just saying "don't use synthetic oil" is just pushing misinformation.
The OP's problem had nothing to do with his choice of oil anyway, now did it?
Ronnie |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| most guys using synthetic oil will have clutch failure.
But then you don't know how there clutch is set up or if there using the clutch properly |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | I've been using amsoil in my victorys since June 2008 .... clutch still going .. I ride 2 up 98% of the time ... |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | 2003 victory vegas 617 lbs 92 ci clutch friction plates part number 2202434
2008-16 victory vision 869 lbs 106 clutch friction plates part number 2202434
At the time of the Vegas release it was the heaviest (or close to it ) bike they had while also being 2 generations smaller of a engine than what we have now .. but yet... our Visions are 252lbs heavier has 14 ci bigger engine and 25 more horsepower over the vegas. .. now since we have a touring bike we have a much greater chance of also carrying weight in bags or truck... on top of riding for greater distances and then if you pull a trailer ..? So same clutch plates used in a smaller engine , smaller bike , is used in our Visions. .... 1+1= ? |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | johnnyvision - 2016-06-19 5:38 PM
most guys using synthetic oil will have clutch failure.
WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.
People who use the INCORRECT OIL for the application might have clutch problems. And some have. It has nothing to do with whether it is synthetic or not.
I've been using Amsoil in my Victorys for the past 16 years, and have Never had any clutch problems. I have broken three drive belts by powershifting under full throttle though. I have also had a broken clutch CABLE. Is that the fault of the synthetic oil in the crankcase too?
I'm also still going on the original transmission on my 2000 model Victory. This is the same bike that was giving erratic transmission behavior on the factory recommended Victory semi-synthetic oil. Once I switched it to Amsoil, the missed shifts and jumping out of gear went away for good. Amsoil is the reason that bike is still going strong 16 years later.
Anybody can use any oil they want to in their own bike. I don't care. It bothers me to see uninformed people spreading BS though. That does no service to the Victory community.
Ronnie
Edited by rdbudd 2016-06-20 10:33 AM
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | When dealing with facts, I guess experience has to count. I know I used full synthetic for many, many miles, until I felt clutch slippage. It was around 98,000 miles coming onto the interstate hard as I normally did and I felt slippage. I thought it was my imagination but after a few tests I was convinced it's time for a new clutch. But to see if I went back to sem-dino oil it would change, I figured that was a cheaper alternative at the moment. So I put in the a 10w40 Semi-syn motorcycle oil. and with each oil change, two fairly close together, I could feel the clutch coming back. 98,000 later I'm still on the original clutch with no sign of letting up. So for me, no more full synthetic for my Bentley. I don't dispute any other claim for your bike, but this tells me there are other factors and forces in play. As cookie cutter as we think are machines are, each has a slightly different personality. Further, I stood firm on synthetic oil in not being a problem despite what technicians saw when changing out clutch packs. But I leave you with this, put anything you feel will work, it doesn't matter to me.
Edited by varyder 2016-06-20 10:49 AM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 721
| Arkainzeye - 2016-06-19 7:03 PM I've been using amsoil in my victorys since June 2008 .... clutch still going .. I ride 2 up 98% of the time ... I'm right there with you and my clutch feels the same as the day I rode it out of Randy's Cycles when he was in Huntley, Illinois! I also do not think this a a clutch wear or clutch spring issue simply due to the low miles on the bike, however, it might be a sticky clutch which remains disengaged even with the lever released. |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| rdbudd
your one person. Look on the net and you'll find thousands saying Amsoil was the cause |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | johnnyvision - 2016-06-20 5:34 PM
rdbudd
your one person. Look on the net and you'll find thousands saying Amsoil was the cause
As many victory motorcycles you see on the road..
How many other brands do you see.. ? Honda , Suzuki , Yamaha ,kawasaki , BMW, Indian, harley, can-am etc etc
. What about their clutches? Why is there No wides spread complaints with using Amsoil ? When I used to be on the kawasaki
Forums tons of guys used amsoil year after year,... I used amsoil in .your 125ci 2053cc kawasaki
. Clutch never slipped .. 141 ftlbs torque
The formulation of.their 10w40 MC oil is the same formula every other brand of bike uses with no problems.. keep in mind something else synthetic oils used in harleys..... do harley share the same engine oil with their transmissions? My friends harley has different lubrication requirements for his transmission than his engine
. So on that note, his engine can have high amounts of friction modifiers with no fear of clutch worries..
..
.. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 73
| I ran full syn for 50k miles with no problem, but I rarely tach over 4k. As such, my clutch isn't stressed like some....
If I really want to meet law enforcement... well, I still have a sport bike for that.
My experience was that full syn made the trans smoother, but added slight noise to the engine. Especially on cold start ... for a few secs.
Now I'm running a mix of half full syn and half conventional. Engine does not tick/clatter on cold start up ( even on the rare occasion that it has sat for a day or two ), and the trans is fairly smooth. 75K miles, original clutch, oil pressure gauge reads to spec ( ~80psi @3k rpm ). Seems Pol knew what they were talking about when recommending the 'blend.'
I've never ran Amsoil in anything..... so no opinion there.
From what I've seen, if you're going to run hard and at the top of the rpm range, do NOT go full syn. If you're going to run it like a cruiser, you'll probably be fine.....
I once ran through Atlanta at rush hour in intense heat while running the full syn, A solid hour of stop and go with no problems.
I've seen enough threads on Vic clutch failure to know it's a real problem.... mostly on the 'porker' bikes. I don't think Pol thought about heavier plates as the bikes gained weight. Too many fail for it to all be rider error....
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | http://www.cross-riders.com/bb/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11503 |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 802
Perry Hall, MD | Hey azuogu1 any update? Good to see that you have avoided getting into the oil debate (can't mention the word without causing a ruckus). |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | johnnyvision - 2016-06-20 5:34 PM
rdbudd
your one person. Look on the net and you'll find thousands saying Amsoil was the cause
And when you quiz them on WHICH particular Amsoil product they used, invariably they used the one formulated specifically for Harleys.
They used THE WRONG PRODUCT FOR THEIR APPLICATION, and then blamed the oil.
In other words--operator error.
Look on the net and you'll also find thousands of happy Amsoil users. What's your point??
Ronnie
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | You right .. look at the link I posted above and look at what weight was the one mentioned the most with clutch issues .. |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | The full syn I used was the proper rating for the Vic motors. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | varyder - 2016-06-23 7:53 PM
The full syn I used was the proper rating for the Vic motors.
There are many more requirements than just having the JASO-MA rating. If you think you are covered just because the oil you used had a JASO-MA rating, you would be mistaken.
JASO-MA just means wet clutch. It does NOT mean ALL wet clutches. There are additional qualifiers.
I know several farmers who learned this same lesson the hard way when they put the wrong type of wet clutch oil in their equipment and had problems with PTO clutches. Equipment today varies in clutch material types and uses specialized oils.
Same with motorcycles. Victory and the Japanese brands use one type and Harley and some of the European brands use another type of material. They each use a specific package of additives. All include the JASO-MA rating, but putting an oil with additives meant for a Harley in a Victory or a Japanese brand can lead to problems. And, vice-versa.
Use the right synthetic for your application. If you don't--then you get problems.
A survey was done on this forum several years ago specific to Victory clutches and Amsoil use. The results back then showed that about 25% of the people who put the Harley specific Amsoil in their bikes had clutch problems, but virtually none had problems with the Amsoil products designed for the Japanese brands or Victory.
Just saying something on the order of "synthetic oil makes Victory clutches slip" is silly. that would be like saying "putting a car tire on a motorcycle will cause instant death". Ridiculous. The facts just don't bear it out.
Ronnie |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | http://www.whitedogbikes.com/whitedogblog/choosing-the-right-motorb... |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | Yep.
The JASO-MA is only ONE of SEVERAL ratings required for an oil approved for use in our bikes. By itself, it doesn't mean all that much. There are other specialized additives in each type of synthetic (and non-synthetic) oils for each application to consider.
The Amsoil product made specifically for Harley usage specifically states in the application sheet that it has additional friction modifiers to cope with the high operating temperatures common to the Harley design. Look it up.
Victory specifically states in your owner's manual DO NOT USE additives that "reduce friction". Using the product meant for the Harleys in a Victory is operator error. It is NOT the oil's fault. It didn't pour itself in there. The uniformed operator did. Then, when the said operator experiences clutch problems, he blames the oil instead of himself.
Amsoil makes at least three products compatible with Victory and the Japanese brands. They are specifically enumerated in the applications sheet for the products. One of them is designed specifically for Victory and the new Indians in a 20W-40 weight. Use any of them and you will not have any clutch problems. Thousands of happy owners can testify to that.
There are other brands available too. Some of them have ALL the proper ratings and are compatible with Victory, and some of them aren't. Be informed before you pour.
Ronnie
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | Amen to that one.. like i said before i have read where victorys with victory oil still had clutch issues and these were on Low mileage bikes !
and i agree with what you said about the application especially when you read about all the people that have had clutch slippage using 20w50.
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | Arkainzeye - 2016-06-25 11:36 AM
Amen to that one.. like i said before i have read where victorys with victory oil still had clutch issues and these were on Low mileage bikes !
and i agree with what you said about the application especially when you read about all the people that have had clutch slippage using 20w50.
Even there (20W-50) we have to be specific.
Amsoil makes TWO DIFFERENT synthetic 20W-50 oils with the JASO-MA rating.
One is specifically formulated for use in Harleys and some European brands. Says so right in the application sheet they publish. Putting that one in a Victory has been known to cause problems. The survey done on this forum revealed about 25% of those who used it in a Victory had problems.
The other is formulated for use in Victory, Indian, and the Japanese brands. Says so right in the applications sheet they publish. Using that one in a Victory has not caused any problems. The same survey done on this forum showed no problems using it in a Victory.
In the time since that survey was done, Amsoil has come out with a specialty oil in a 20W-40 weight for Victory and Indians. It also has the JASO-MA rating. LOL!!
Ronnie
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | rdbudd - 2016-06-24 11:52 AM varyder - 2016-06-23 7:53 PM The full syn I used was the proper rating for the Vic motors. There are many more requirements than just having the JASO-MA rating. If you think you are covered just because the oil you used had a JASO-MA rating, you would be mistaken. JASO-MA just means wet clutch. It does NOT mean ALL wet clutches. There are additional qualifiers. I know several farmers who learned this same lesson the hard way when they put the wrong type of wet clutch oil in their equipment and had problems with PTO clutches. Equipment today varies in clutch material types and uses specialized oils. Same with motorcycles. Victory and the Japanese brands use one type and Harley and some of the European brands use another type of material. They each use a specific package of additives. All include the JASO-MA rating, but putting an oil with additives meant for a Harley in a Victory or a Japanese brand can lead to problems. And, vice-versa. Use the right synthetic for your application. If you don't--then you get problems. A survey was done on this forum several years ago specific to Victory clutches and Amsoil use. The results back then showed that about 25% of the people who put the Harley specific Amsoil in their bikes had clutch problems, but virtually none had problems with the Amsoil products designed for the Japanese brands or Victory. Just saying something on the order of "synthetic oil makes Victory clutches slip" is silly. that would be like saying "putting a car tire on a motorcycle will cause instant death". Ridiculous. The facts just don't bear it out. Ronnie Be that as it may, if it is that complicated then it's best to stick to Vic juice. I switch to a properly rated semi-syn (not Vic) and now have no issues approaching 200,000 miles on the same clutch. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 8
| the only oil that has ever been put in my bike is the one that comes in the Victory service kit, and that was at the break in 500 miles stage and at 5000 miles, but my bike only has 5700 miles on it, so can that be called a premature failure of the clutch system, or is it expected that the clutch can fail by the time its first scheduled service comes up? is it normal to expect this, or can this be called a factory defect? |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| azuogu1
hard to say with out riding it. You should go into dealer and have them look at it. There should be no slippage |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 8
| It is at the dealership now and has been there for the past 3 and a half weeks waiting to be diagnosed, so i don even have feed back from them yet. |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| go down and ask the dealer why it hasn't been looked at |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | Holy crap 3.5 weeks... what they hell they waiting for .. I bet they have no clue what to do , so they are working on all the stuff they have that they clearly know what to fix and can get easy money .. |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | I've never known personally a motorcycle shop that works quickly. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1308
Sand Rock, AL United States | A Victory shop kept my 99 for 13 months last time! They kept it another time before that for about that long! I now have an independent tech. He has a shop full of work and has 1 assistant. He changes tires while I wait and when the countershaft bearing went out, I bought a salvage motor. He received it on a Monday and had me back on the road Thursday. If you don't know , you have to dismantle the Vision into two pieces , a front half and a back half.
I will say, I may get preferential treatment. We have had a solid relationship since before he opened his doors.
Attachments
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 Vision heart transplant2.jpeg (415KB - 7 downloads)
Vision heart transplant.jpeg (444KB - 3 downloads)
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 8
| Team Mancuso Power sports 59 in Houston, TX. is the name of the dealership
Edited by azuogu1 2016-08-04 10:12 AM
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 8
| johnnyvision - 2016-07-28 5:40 PM
go down and ask the dealer why it hasn't been looked at
I did, and they told me that i have 4 bikes ahead of mine, to-which i told them, you told me the same thing 2 weeks ago. I asked why they could not at least do a diagnostic, and consult with Victory on the warranty now so that when they are ready to work on the bike, all that would have already been done, and I was told that they usually do that stuff when its time to start working on the bike. So my bike just sits there for a month without me even getting an official diagnostic, or a quote on if it will be covered by the warranty, or if I will have to pay out of pocket for it, while at the same time, I am making my monthly note payments, without being able to ride, or even see my bike??? In my opinion there is something very wrong with their process, and they can't seem to see that it is damaging customer confidence in their dealership, and the Victory brand too, at least in my eyes!!!!!!! |
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Visionary
Posts: 1308
Sand Rock, AL United States | that is terrible service! who is this dealer , so I can avoid them? |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | Now I see victory has a new FULL SYNTH oil .... and this is the shocker to me ... it's 15w60. http://www.victorymotorcycles.com/en-us/shop/maintenance/15w-60-eng... |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | good deal |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | interesting the container for some reason has french writing on it?? why? now im not saying these guys make it.. but its interesting the French oil company MOTUL has been making a 15w60 synth motorcycle oil for a long time ... i just didnt know why the Victory oil bottle had to have french writing on the front of it .. did the victory oil that is 20w40 have that as well ? |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 8
| jimtom - 2016-08-04 10:13 AM
that is terrible service! who is this dealer , so I can avoid them?
It is Mancuso Power sports 59 in Houston. Its safe to say I will not be using them anymore. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 8
| So 6 weeks later, i get a call from the dealer that Victory has denied my extended warranty, stating that the clutch plates are not covered. I called Victory to get them to officially send me something that says that it is normal for their clutch to start slipping before the first standard service which is at 5000 miles, to which i was told that "Even though it is not normal for the clutch to go out at this stage in the bikes life, they can not consider it a defect, and they will not cover it under their warranty".
I have to say that this whole experience with a bike that is just turning a year old, has put a very bad taste in my mouth concerning my bike, and Victory as a whole, and the fact that I bought an extended warranty that is doing me no good right now is really pissing me off. I really am thinking about just getting rid of the bike now, because I bought a brand new bike so that I would not have to worry about things like this, instead this is exactly what I get. and I am truly just extremely unhappy with the whole experience. |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| azuogu1
first off its a wearable item.
Victory doesn't know if any riders knows how to use a clutch or what they had done like racing or burnout.
If victory or harley would warranty clutches they would be broke. |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | i agree with Johnnyvision .. i have heard other manufactures do the same thing.. when i rode kawasaki's there were people on their forums that got denied warranty coverage for clutch failure as well.. like JV said. there is no way they know that you or anyone else knows how to even use a clutch... im NOT saying its your fault.. not at all.. im just saying, can you imagine how many people burn up a clutch and expect a new one for free... on a side know.. you cant get all new clutch plates for $200 (if you watch youtube and install them yourself., ... its not a big deal.. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1308
Sand Rock, AL United States | I agree, no manufacturer covers a clutch , that would be like covering tires under warranty. My problem with the dealer is they held his bike this long and any dealer worth his salt knows that no manufacturer covers clutches. He should have been told up front and given other options to consider. He cant get back that 6 weeks of his life with no bike! THat would be pure hell on earth for me lol. |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | Yeah I agree jimtom I soooooo? agree with you on that one... this is actually a Very Sore subject for me as this happened with the kawasaki's I had in the past!!! This is why if I am not under warranty & and my scooter needs work.... it will take a act of God for me to take it to the dealer... I took my bike to the dealer last year for that fender recall and they couldn't even get that right !! I get home and bolts were missing .... so I called them and made them come to me to finish it , or I was going to call victory and let them know they were F'ing up the recall.. hell I hate going good to the dealership so bad... I have my engine out of my bike now ..... installing new fuel rail, Crank sensor and while I'm at it xv-30 cams . I've never done anything like this before ever ... but I bet my dealer with their 21 year old KID wrenching on stuff hasn't either ... the only difference is .. I'm NOT going to pay themy $94 and hour for him to learn .... I was toying with the idea of throwing in a Barnett clutch even though I have no problems... nah I guess I'll wait
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