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Cruiser
Posts: 106
L.I., N.Y. | This problem continues on with my Vision having starting problems.  At this time I have to engage the starter until the bike runs on it's own and let it run for the next 15-25 mintues with the hwy lights off, heated accessories off, so the battery will charge up. Tues the 10th I go to start my bike and I decide not to keep the starter engaged til the bike starts cause it grates' me to do this cause eventually something going to give. On the third start stall the battery dies and immediately I get the thought to kick my bike over  and immediately I dismiss this idea. Now I get on the phone with the dealer and rip the service guy, because I asked him to get an idle control valve for this bike weeks ago to replace it. Previous post this bike with randomly idle up to 1800 rpm and stay there, you can not twist the throttle forward it has no effect, you can drive it and eventually it will return to normal idle. FYI yesterday it went to 1200 rpms on it's own and stayed there, I just continued on and it returned to normal idle a few miles later when I came to a red light. I drop the bike at the dealer, we make a plan they will hook it up to the computer and hopefully get an answer when they cold start this bike, weather is predicted 20's next few overnights, I tell them it's ok with me to leave it outside. They leave bike in a 60 degree shop, bike starts. Now we have the previous conversation again. Again same thing, bike in shop, starts. Now they change the plugs and tell me they are fouled out and this could be starting issue, bike has 7100mi. Well you guys changed those plugs at 3600 mi and if this bike is fouling out plugs every few thousand miles don't you think it's another issue. Previous conversation again. I visit the dealer Fri. afternoon, and wouldn't know, yea you guessed it, bike in the shop overnight starts right up, never hooked up to computer for startup. Now I take a different approach, with all the computer controlled things on this bike wouldn't codes, errors, etc. be in the computer, cause my check engine and battery light have come on. So Sat. afternoon I call and a fuel pump code comes up and there trying to trace, track it, whatever, and they want to keep my bike til next week. After some dicussion and me wanting to ride this weekend, I tell them to leave it out front, lock the key in the trunk and I'll pick it up that evening. Oh you guess it, they locked up and left, bike in the shop. The owner son just happened by a few mintues after I got there and got my bike out for me, I got forgotten, no one told the tech to leave it out. Now the plot thickens, we paint our garage floor Sun. bike sitting in driveway, it's 24 deg. out, it takes 3 tries to start my bike and I video it. Mon it's 27 deg. out the battery dies trying to start my bike, I video that, put tender on til 3 that afternoon. Tues. it's 25 deg. out and after five attempted start stalls, it runs, the 1st try after 3 turn over it ran for 1 or 2 seconds then stalled, 2nd try it putted and stalled, 3rd same as 2nd, 4th try it putted twice I released starter button bike stalled, 5th try turn over several times putted I release str. but., 6th I held the starter button for 6 seconds putt stall, turn over putt stall, until it ran on it's own rather than kill battery. This was start off the video tape. Anyone have a suggestion. Yes this is a multi dealer Suz. Yam. Cam. and Vic.
Edited by slowryder 2009-03-25 11:20 AM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 600
Linwood, MI | I don't know how much trouble it is or how close one is to you, but I really think it's time for you to find a new dealer. These guys clearly don't seem to know what they're doing and don't seem to be listening to the information that the customer (you) is giving them to help diagnose. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 2027
Brighton, TN | slowryder, you and I need to keep in touch through this thread. My bike is doing exactly the same thing, the only difference it would seem is that I twist the throttle until it starts and then just hold it till it smooths out. Took my bike to the dealer on the trailer, and it wouldn't start, but leave it in their shop and wa la it cranks right up. No problem, until i get it home. Then it all starts over again. So this last time, the dealer tells me he has this carbon deposit cleaner that should do the trick. I buy the victory Carbon Deposit cleaner and go on a 800+ mile trip. I almost hate to say this, but it does seem to run better and better throttle response. One fill up half a bottle and then skipped a fill up. Third fill up poured the rest of the extremely expensive small bottle into the tank. Seems to crank so far with no throttle input, but it is getting warmer. Left the bike out after getting home and with a little rain and low 50's my "Memory Maker 1" fired right up. I was almost giddy. I will wait for a few more starts. So far I have been fairly impressed by a lot of the Victory products. It's 8 bucks, I figured what the heck. If the plugs are fouling then it is possible there is a lot more carbon in there on injectors and valves.
I'll come back to this thread and update. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | another product that works wonders for cleaning carbon is Seafoam... I already used it in my Vision just to keep it clean before it started any issues | |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | I'm finding mine is carbonated as well. I run great on the road, but it is starting to get poppy at stops especially when it warms up. I dumped half of bottle of the AMSOIL injector cleaner and it seems to run better, however there is still a pop and sometimes a flat spot, like I'm cranking on the throttle, but it is trying to ignore me (Christine effect). I think I hear an exhaust leak but it is further back and not on the jug, unless my gasket is blown. I've got new gaskets and I'm going to check them. Sometimes, the problems you are having is a combo of things, so really do the simple checks first to rule them out like plugs, exhausts leaks or loose wiring. I'm heading to Atlanta on Monday so I need to do a shakedown before I leave. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1484
LaPorte,Tx. | To clear the carbon out of the cylinder, find a nice road, with no traffic, down shift to second gear and wack the throttle wide open and hang on to red line......do this a couple times at least once a week. It reduces carbon build up in the cylinder, reduces gas mileages, increases smiles, and don't do it in 1st gear....unless your ready to wheeeeeleeee. Hang on.  
And what is this Nitrogen Enriched Shell gas.....suppose to clean your valves and all. Last week I rode with my friend that works for Exon-Mobile and asked him about Nitrogen enriched gas, he was going to check and find out is this is just hype. The carbon cleaner is in your right hand, use it. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1324
So Cal | I thought nitrogen was an inert gas? (doesnt burn)maybe it help keep the mix cooler. Sounds like hype to me. How do they mix gas with a liquid? Unless there's a chemical reaction with an additive? Twist of the right wrist works better for me, followed by a compression decell in the same gear. Blows it all out the backdoor. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1350
| +1 on new dealer. When I had my problem in New Haven last week my GPS said the local dealers were in LI. Did not know them and probably don't.
My suggestion is to take it to Lloyd. Sure he is a distance away but I bet good money he will fix it. Plus post when you go and we can have a "meet".  | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 106
L.I., N.Y. | Brian when I crack the throttle slightly on any lower temps my bike starts on the second to third over around the 1000 to 1400 rpm range and will run. The Victory East end dealer was going to change out my IAC valve and clean out the throttle body, but close in Jan. before the fix was done. I'll keep you posted, the videos I did helped. They told me they did leave it out one day, but the problem is they start at 10:30 am by the time they get to my bike its 60deg out, I did the same on day two at around 11:30am the bike temp gauge said 59deg I check the oil temp 60 deg. with my certified meat themometer, bike started on 4th turnover. In case your wondering the NYS health dept. will test any meat themometer for accuracy and it can not be off by more than one degree, if it is they tell you to toss it and get another. My wife bought one with large numbers and I get the little one. I'm gonna regret posting this.
Edited by slowryder 2009-03-26 10:14 AM
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Cruiser
Posts: 106
L.I., N.Y. | Blue I just emailed Lloyd two weeks ago about doing the cams in my bike this spring, but unfortunately he can't do warranty work
Edited by slowryder 2009-03-26 10:13 AM
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New user
Posts: 3
| Do you have lemon law thier it sounds like you should have a good case for a new bike. | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 106
L.I., N.Y. | Yes the NYS Lemon Law applies to motorcycles I'm on the phone with the Attorney General's office a I type. Plus I just contacted Polaris consumer affairs. | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 106
L.I., N.Y. | Yes the NYS Lemon Law applies to motorcycles I'm on the phone with the Attorney General's office a I type. Plus I just contacted Polaris consumer affairs. | |
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Tourer
Posts: 506
Woodland Hills, CA | Seems to me that these bikes should NOT be having a problem with fouled plugs, especially with such relatively low mileage. I'm no mechanic, but it seems to me that something else is wrong. I have issue with carbon deposit cleaners (or with blowing it out from time to time.....fun!), but I have never owned a vehicle of any type that had this kind of build up on the plugs with such short mileage where there wasn't some other problem. I agree with Rebel.....find a new mechanic (although that may be easier said than done). | |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | Funny you should mention that there Wizard523 about the fouled plugs. Mine has fouled from day one. Now with that said, it is not a problem in the way it runs down the highway and most of the time. For a while it ran great, then we're back to having some problems. When I had the popping and so forth in the beginning all the dealer talked about was how LEAN the bike was running because of the EFI and that was what was causing my problem. S1L1 pipes should clear that up, so they said. Now my thought is to get it to run right STOCK first, then upgrade. So after a reflash and new plugs it stilled popped but ran a little better. It wasn't until I tightened the exhaust pipes nuts at the jug did it finally run like it should. When I revealed this to the dealer the response was they must have worked loose since the last time they serviced it and since I did the last service myself at the time I didn't check the nuts like they do when they do the service. Well, I wanted to buy that, but what also changed was the ticking noise that I had from almost day one. That was from the exhaust leak. Also, I want to note that the tips of my pipes have always had a good layer of soot on them since I ride all the time. Now the reasoning from the dealer is that it runs lean around town and rich on the open highway. I pulled my plugs recently and got new ones from the dealer and he said that they look "good" but they are a little sooty, again, because I got stock pipes. I think I have another exhaust leak further back or one of my exhaust gaskets is worn as it is popping again and I detect a slight ticking noise that I can pen down. The exhaust at the jugs are tight, but something is going on. I only mentioned all this because everytime I've pulled my plugs they are white on the tips and sooty everywhere else. I got soot on my pipe tips like I'm running diesel and my guess is this is most Visions running stock pipes. By the way, I've got 37,020 miles as of tonight. | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 106
L.I., N.Y. | It's funny you mention sooting as the service guy told me the last two times they started my bike it bletch out black smoke, leading them to believe that may be a combo of things, beside just the fuel pump error codes. They were on the phone with Victory when I called Fri. The HORRORrrr, The HORRORrrr, The HORRORrrr.... 
Edited by slowryder 2009-03-28 3:41 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 2027
Brighton, TN | slowryder, I am here to inform you and update the rest, that the magic bottle of Victory Carbon Deposit cleaner did not fix my little problem. This morning, Outside temp is around 44 degrees, shop temp probably same temp, but no wind chill to factor in. Hit the old starter button and am greeted by the sound of a Non Cranking bike. Turns over but no start. Crack the throttle just a wee bit and it fires to life. Still quite irritating.
What puts the CHOKE on this bike?
After the dealer and I read through the manual, the IAC valve is there according to the book for Idle control, not cranking, but I'm thinking it is dual purpose. But the book no mention. I thought about removing the lines and seeing if I could get it to start by manually adjusting the air flow.
ANy IDEaS! | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 106
L.I., N.Y. | Pollolittle, your probably correct. The previous dealer I went to also concluded this due to the hard starts, unless you crack the throttle a little and the bike would indiscriminately idle to anywhere between 1200 to 1800 rpm's on it's own during daily use at multiple stops. They were going to change the IAC valve and check the throttle body. This also controls the start up of your bike, I was told if the IAC valve fails your bike may not start up. You might want to give kevinx or llody Unfortunately the dealer closed prior to making the repairs. I called 1-800-Polaris and complained to consumer product relations department. Then I notified the dealer that I called Polaris to have there Victory Tech guys get involved in getting my Bike back to me. The bottom line comes down to an expensive motorcycle with 7900 miles is sitting at the dealership and they need to get everyone INVOLVED TO GET IT RESOLVED.
Edited by slowryder 2009-03-29 11:22 PM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 600
Linwood, MI | IAC is the Idle Air Control valve. This basically acts as your choke. The way it works, in a nutshell is by controlling the amount of air that enters the intake at start up and idle. It's sort of like a little plunger on the end of a screw. Since fuel into the intake is pretty constant, the computer affects starting and idle by controlling the air flow.
When you are first starting an engine, particuarly in cold weather, the air/fuel does not atomize very well, so you need more fuel vs. air to get started. On old carb vehicles you controlled this with your choke. By closing the choke you limit the amount or air, thus making your mixture richer in fuel. The computer now does all this via the IAC. The comp reads air temp, air flow, crank sensor, idle speed, and ignition info to determine where to position the IAC to get the proper mixture.
Once you're started, the computer uses the IAC to control the flow of air in order to maintain the programmed proper idle speed. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 2027
Brighton, TN | Rebel, thanks for the explanation! However, how did you come up with this little tidbit of info. I have read through the book a bunch and have yet to come up with that explanation. I've deduced it, but haven't been able to confirm it. I agree wholeheartedly, about the way you wrote it, I'm being a little hard headed and was just trying to prove it to the dealer so they would order one.
Is there a way to manually test it, the book shows all kinds of resistance readings but I wasn't sure it would work right since it is so intermittent.
I thought there might be a way to disconnect the lines and adjust the air myself by shutting the air off and richening the mixture to see if it would start by bypassing the IAC.
Thanks, | |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 600
Linwood, MI | pollolittle - 2009-03-30 10:23 PM
Rebel, thanks for the explanation! However, how did you come up with this little tidbit of info.
I'm a mechanic. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 2027
Brighton, TN | What about the bypass or test idea? | |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 600
Linwood, MI | Po, this a really quick response because I don't want you to think I forgot about you. I've been really busy the past couple days and haven't had a chance to dig out my service manual to see how the Vision IAC is set up. Therefor, the info you are about to give is some basic auto (as in, a car...) mechanics concerning an IAC.
On a car IAC problems fall into 3 basic categories. Note that these are IAC problems as opposed to problems that affect IAC, such as a vacuum leak, et al. If your IAC isn't working it is normally carbon build up that is keeping the IAC from moving properly or quickly enough (very common problem), or the IAC windings are getting weak and thus the IAC isn't working up to snuff electrically (common), or the ECM isn't sending the proper signals to the IAC to control it (not common, but a real drag when it happens).
For you, Po, I'd recommend carefully removing the IAC and spraying the shaft with some carb cleaner or something similar. Once it looks pretty clean of deposits hook the wiring back up to it while you have it out and turn your key on. The ECM should cycle the IAC and you'll see it move in and/or out. When you turn your key off it should move it again after a couple seconds. This is that clicking sound you hear when you turn the bike off. The pintel should move in and out fairly quickly. If it is really slugglish or jerky, I'd recommend repeating the process once more. If you get the same results you might want to think about a new IAC.
Now that I've told you this I need to put in a bit of a disclaimer. I am not familiar with the IAC set up on a Vision. The info I gave you is based on my knowledge of cars, but it should work, assuming the good folks at Vic didn't come up with some really off-the-wall new design for IACs. I'll try to dig into my book on Thur so I can give you a better answer. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 2027
Brighton, TN | well, I appreciate the disclaimer. So apparently, there are IAC's on cars too. And the way you speak about them, they work in the manner you have described. Which makes sense, surprisingly!
I have carb cleaner so will try and see what I can clean and see If I can see any of it move. Good description, please let me know if you find out anything different than you have described above. Appreciate the help.
So, it also has to be the choke for the intake, allowing or shutting off more air. Since the butterfly valve won't be open when you hit the start button or shouldn't be, then it would adjust through the IAC, for cranking and idle control.
Why can't they just say that. | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 106
L.I., N.Y. | Brain is you bike still under warranty? | |
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Visionary
Posts: 2027
Brighton, TN | It is under the extended warranty. I have already trailered the bike down to the shop. The reason being because it wouldn't start when cold. Showed them and it wouldn't start when I had it on the trailer. Like you they kept in in their shop and every morning for over a week it would start. So, they told me to come get it. They tell me they will fix it, if they can get it to act up. Which I believe, but I don't know how long they would have to keep it before it would act up, again! So, maybe next winter I can go pick it up when it won't crank again, but it would have to be really cold in their shop. Who knows!
So, the deductible now is $50, the part is $70 for the IAC Valve. Then I would have to wait for the bike to continually act up. So, far I have gotten the Victory Carbon Deposit cleaner and ran that through with no luck. Now, I have read up a little more and seen how these little gizmos work. Went and bought a $5 can of carburetor cleaner and will clean out this valve and see what that holds for me. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1436
| I may be way off base here guys because I have not looked at the wiring and fuel system diagrams BUT... It seems to me that if the plugs are carbon fouled and the bike has a close loop system, this bike would act much like the 1980 early emission car. So if the plugs are fouled so are the O2 sensors. Have any of you experiencing this problem had a look to see if this is the case? Just a thought. | |
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Tourer
Posts: 412
Fargo, ND | I'm wondering is a 'Dash' of Seafoam in each tankful would cure the problem? | |
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Visionary
Posts: 2027
Brighton, TN | Teach, thanks for the idea. I'm looking at the IAC and will clean it and see what happens first. mY plugs were not all that fouled when I changed them. Changed them just cause it was the next cheapest thing, that could possibly affect it.
Flatsix, another good idea. But unfortunately, that would be the same as the carbon deposit cleaner that I ran through the tank. I did an 800 mile trip in one day and used an entire bottle of the Victory cleaner. No change, also, the Seafoam or the Victory laced Gold liquid does not go through the IAC, so it wouldn't clean it. So I have to pull a few small pieces only that I can see and clean it. Hopefully it is a small minute problem, which is easily fixed. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1436
| Brian I hope it is something that simple. Keep us posted on what you find. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 2027
Brighton, TN | Okay! Here's the latest update!
Me and my five dollar can of Carburetor cleaner, a few tools, and a few minutes of free time, pulled up a chair to my lovely BSP. This free time only came after putting my horses back in the pasture after they wandered around the neighborhood for a few hours.
To get to the IAC valve, you have to pull the cheese wedge on the right hand side. Behind that is the bracket for the cheese wedge and sitting on the inside of the that bracket is the IAC. Remove the four bolts for the bracket, and then I couldn't figure out how to remove the vacuum lines with the bracket still bolted to the IAC. Now remove the IAC, two bolts with a lot of Loctite on them, very tough to turn. Once the bracket is free, now you have just the IAC hanging there with the air lines going to it. I was unable to pull the lines off. What I though was just a slip on tube is on good and tight.
Now, what to do! I decided to take out the IAC, remove the three screws and pull it out. Looking inside the IAC housing, it is pretty and clean. The housing is a piece of aluminum, the inside is shiny and smooth. They can make the inside of that piece almost chrome like, yet my wheels are cast. Sometimes you gotta wonder. Turn the key on and the IAC pulls the plunger in close to the motor. Then crank the engine and the plunger starts moving trying get the idle right. I can shut off more air to the IAC housing and the IAC will extend or retract as needed. It works! Seems like the mechanism is a little notchy in its travel, but not a lot. I go ahead and take the carburetor cleaner and clean the end of the plunger and the shaft that the plunger is riding on to see if it will help it. After spraying the plunger and shaft, it seems to travel a little smoother. But nothing dramatic to seem to make a difference.
While the IAC is out I go ahead and spray into the IAC housing and into the area of the air lines, but no gunk or black gooey-ness comes out. My fingers are clean at this point! When you turn the key off, after about 15 seconds, the IAC will cycle, by retracting fully and then extending. In warm weather, when you turn the key on, the IAC retracts over 3/4.
So to no avail, I put it all back together with a little bit of blue loctite and tightened it all down. Did a couple of test starts before I started working on the bike and of course the bike starts right up. Then after working on it, I started the bike and no issues. So unknown if this fixes it. It doesn't seem to idle any different. Still sounds the same.
Any other ideas? | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1436
| Brian have you had a chance to inspect the sensors yet? I think we are going to run out of cold weather before you get it sorted out my friend, lol. Make sure your dealers mechanic makes a memo that they are aware of the problem but unable to determine the cause due to climate change. Then you'll still be covered when it cools down in the fall and can get it in under warranty. | |
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Cruiser
Posts: 106
L.I., N.Y. | To update Victory has request the videos I made of my ride not starting in cold weather will keep you all informed of there findings. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 2027
Brighton, TN | I'm unsure how I made it back to this post, other than I was looking for Paint Codes. Go Figure!
So, since that timeframe of cleaning the IAC, (knock on wood) I haven't had any problems. Change the plugs every 15,000 and cranks up every time.
Haven't heard whether ole slowryder got his fixed or not! | |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 763
Anderson, IN (48mi NE of downtown Indianapolis) | Thanks for the update. I'm sure this will help others when they have the same issue. | |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | doesn't look like slowryder has been back since Sept of 2010, at least here on the forum. | |
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Fuel pump, ICV,Cold starts????