|
|
Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | To increase revenue?
http://www.northcountrygazette.org/2009/06/09/cycle_check/
I believe in safety number one, but probably would get a ticket because my front tire is slightly below the wear bars.
Could this constitute harassment or true safety awareness? I know there are a lot of folk out there that really don't have a clue about what they are doing when they straddle a 800 lb machine with 100hp and no collision protection. There are those who need the awareness, but is this really the intent there in N.Y. or anywhere? | |
| | |
Visionary
Posts: 1324
So Cal | I will give them the 4 criminal arrests, The rest was just Bullshit. How many of the others will be thrown out, if contested? | |
| | |
Visionary
Posts: 1350
| It happens every where except by the 2 casinos near me. They set up a DWI stop years ago by Foxwoods. Jeez do you think gamblers drink free booze? The Indians said they would stop the monthly check to the state if they did it again. Anyone want a couple of casinos? Free to a bad home.
MB, Sturgis Laconia have check points. I remember a LONG line of Hells Angels on the side of the road at Laconia one year. | |
| | |
Tourer
Posts: 363
Goldsboro, NC | I think it is Myrtle Beach style harassment. I have a bad enough time accepting checkpoints in general. I have visions of grey wool overcoats with Kalashnikovs.... "papers". Targeting motorcycles is over the top.
I'll accept a motorcycle-specific checkpoint during a bike event when I see child safety seat checkpoints giving out tickets in front of the local elementary schools. Until then, the SOB's can go stuff themselves with fried batter confections filled with fruit preserves.
Targeted enforcement is as against the Constitution as targeted legislation, in my not-so-humble opinion.
Paul Podbielski
the trailbarge | |
| | |
Tourer
Posts: 562
SC, Bluffton | trailbarge - 2009-06-15 11:11 AM
Targeted enforcement is as against the Constitution as targeted legislation, in my not-so-humble opinion.
I have been in those twice in my neck of the woods now. Someone told us all check points have been in the newpaper in the days prior, or it wouldn't be legal? Ought to be an online service for that.
Herb | |
| | |
Cruiser
Posts: 141
| Why don't they start stopping all the tourists heading up the northway every weekend?? Oh Wait that would piss people off. | |
| | |
Tourer
Posts: 548
Mount Vernon, WA United States | I'm with trailbarge and varyder on this. I'm as safety conscious as they come but.... while I don't know the exact numbers.. the main reason it seems we NEED approved helmets as example... is to save our heads when some overworked, under appreciated, mom, is battling with her toddler on the FRONT seat while talking on the phone doing her nails and makeup and HITS US!!!! It would be interesting if a group of bikers could pull over near the checkpoints and report every MOTOR VEHICLE (cage) violation that passes by while the cops are over just checking bikes. I'm guessing in the same amount of time, as many if not MORE tickets would/could have been written to cages. | |
| | |
Visionary
Posts: 1436
| va, NY has been really cracking down on bikes for the past couple years. It is not unusual for them to cite at least 50 and sometimes a lot more for helmet violations. On top of that they get a bunch for pipes (they could fine a lot more) and they usually arrest a couple and impound their bikes.
Now this is gonna be an unpopular comment but .... It is our own fault. Let me finish... We do NOT police ourselves. Pipes so loud they wake folks up two days before the bike even gets in the neighborhood, novelty helmets when they make carbon fiber just as small that are dot, and probably the worst of it, drinking and riding.
Now I'm not for big government or big brother policing anything, but we as a community need to do a bit better. Everything in moderation is the saying I believe. | |
| | |
Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | I love a good thread, especially when it gets off course. The lead in to the article is "Warren County saw a chance to increase their revenues as well as the state's with Americade this past week and the three police agencies operating in the county teamed up to issue 135 traffic tickets at a recent motorcycle safety checkpoint." That is the whole point that I started with. We can yada, yada, about policing ourselves and all the other good stuff. The checkpoint is a brainchild not for safety sake, but knowing there will be violations that they are not really concerned about, but they can get the revenue.
This is matter of convenience and I dare say of our day of late that our municipalities are more concerned about keeping the paychecks coming and a lot less on whether our citizens are acting in a responsible fashion. I'm not discrediting our men and women of blue, as they have their job to perform and I respect them in the course of it, but this seems to be motivated by a dollar and not safety. Just one man's opinion. | |
| | |
Cruiser
Posts: 247
| there might be another reasaon for this. new hope, pa was a motorcycle haven until they started cracking down on pipes and parking spaces. it is legal to park 2 bikes in a space in pa but new hope started ticketing anyway. i saw them ticket one guy for being 2" over the line with a strectched out bike. after the word got out a lot of us avoided the place. they missed our money and let up a little. bottom line was they just didn't want us there untl the money dried up. | |
| | |
Tourer
Posts: 537
, FL United States | I foresee many of these in the future. | |
| | |
Tourer
Posts: 554
2 mi from Jim Beam n KY | The mayors and state govenors are saying "show me the money!" It's all about the money. | |
| | |
Iron Butt
Posts: 721
| Teach - 2009-06-15 7:06 PM ... It is our own fault. Let me finish... We do NOT police ourselves. Pipes so loud they wake folks up two days before the bike even gets in the neighborhood, novelty helmets when they make carbon fiber just as small that are dot, and probably the worst of it, drinking and riding. Now I'm not for big government or big brother policing anything, but we as a community need to do a bit better. Everything in moderation is the saying I believe. Teach, I have to agree with you 100% on this! A little peer pressure and promotion of that pressure by major groups such as the AMA and ABATE would work wonders to change the image of riders to the non-riding public. The problem is that ABATE would see this as caving in to government ideas (which are not ALWAYS bad). I believe that when it comes to helmets that old adage should apply "let those who ride decide", but that said, when the law says you have to wear at minimum a DOT approved helmet, then do so while working to change the law. As far as the cagers breaking the law, in comparison to the percentage of rider who put on louder pipes the percentage of cagers who put overly loud exhausts on their cars or trucks is vastly out of proportion, or in other words, on average there is a much higher probablility of a motorcycle being cited by police for a compliance violation versus the mojority of cars or trucks on the road. What's one of the first things most riders do to their bikes (this applies to both cruiser and sport bike riders)? They put on an exhaust system that the aftermarket manufacturer specifically states is for "OFF ROAD USE ONLY", even though said manufacturer knows damn well that these systems are primarily going to be used on the road. We need to put pressure (read this as NOT to being politically correct) on those that continually break the law for their own pleasure while all of us rider end up paying the consequences for their inconsideration of others.
| |
| | |
Tourer
Posts: 548
Mount Vernon, WA United States | While yes... "it's all about the money".... if targeting bikes didn't make money, they wouldn't target us. As example..
"84 tickets were issued for unapproved helmets, 19 tickets for modified exhausts and 32 tickets for other Vehicle and Traffic Law violations."
Ok... so if we know of a checkpoint, especially one like this that was so widely publicized, maybe one of the clubs, or one of the larger groups could get together and "loan" approved helmets to get through the checkpoint... Hmmm now they went from 135 tickets down to 51 tickets issued. Add a trailer service to shuttle the louder bikes into the event from some gathering location outside the area, and it all of a sudden is hardly worth the effort. It's not like this would have to be done more than once or twice. The risk of wasting all that time and money on a road block that may be defeated, just wouldn't be worth it.
As far as cage violations... sure, if you are just thinking loud pipes... but if you look closely... there are a LARGE number of vehicles on the road that have some sort of violation. Be it the driver yacking on the phone (if that is the law) to lights out, tire wear, emissions, tags, not wearing seatbelt, etc etc... I just wonder how many cages that passed the checkpoint, would not have passed a spot check. I'm guessing the number is pretty high as well.
My point, is as others... it's only a money making endeavor because it works as a money making endeavor. If it wasn't profitable they wouldn't do it... and WE.... ALL OF US... are responsible for making it profitable or not.
| |
| | |
Iron Butt
Posts: 742
North Orange County CA | Someone can (and no doubt will) correct me if I am wrong; but I was under the impression that it has been illegal (under the Clean Air Act) since 1980 to modify ANY part of ANY street legal vehicle that effects its emissions. This would include exhaust systems, ignitions, fuel injection/carbs, and probably a host of internal parts that can't be seen by an inspector.
Virtually all performance parts are sold with a "racing /off road only" designation for this reason.
Anybody care to guess at the number of members of this site would have received a "fix-it" ticket in that spot inspection?
For the last couple of years several beach communities in southern California have been using decibel meters to test motorcycles (as they pass) and they issue lots of citations for excessive noise to the great delight of the general public.
My 91 Ultra had Vance and Hines slip-ons with fixed baffles that, while theoretically meeting the "legal" limit for noise when they were built, were capable of setting off car alarms if I downshifted with the rpms too high. I always had to be careful about getting on the throttle or downshifting when leaving early for a Sunday morning ride to avoid pissing off my neighbors and when traveling through the beach or in residential areas. I eventually sold the bike because my wife hated riding it. One of the primary reasons she hated it was the pipes gave her a headache in very short order.
Ask me about my hearing loss and (if I hear you) I'll tell you about the cumulative negative effect of un-silenced racing motorcycles, wind noise, power tools, guns and electric guitars.
We regularly eat Sunday breakfast with biking buddies and their wives at a sidewalk cafe that is on a major route to one of SoCal's regionally famous biker hangouts. About every 5-10 minutes some numb-nuts on a motorcycle with shorty pipes, a "look at me" ego, and a rear tire with no center tread blasts away from the stop sign at the corner and runs his bike up to the redline as he passes the restaurant. Now keep in mind that there is another stop sign at the end of the block less than 50 yards away, where in another admirable demonstration of personal restraint he will repeat the process as he passes the church on the corner. This type of jackass is the reason that law enforcement gets away with "profiling" or targeting motorcyclists.
All the rationalizations about the number of potential vehicle violations perpetrated by "cagers" mean little when you're sitting on the side of the road with a citation in your hand. I have been riding since I was 15 and the debates about excessive noise (and helmets) and "constitutional rights" have not changed in the intervening 40 years. All we have received for all the posturing and debate is more regulation. What does that tell you?
PERCEPTION IS REALITY (even when it's not).
While spot inspections such as those cited in this thread are certainly intended in the immediate near term to garner revenue, they are the end result of members of our community blatantly ignoring the law and flaunting social convention. Our own behavior makes us an easy target for revenue hungry municipalities. The general public is all too happy to see motorcyclists pulled over on the side of the road en mass; because to most of them we are still a potentially dangerous annoyance, despite all the image band-aids such as "toy runs" and the nice dentist at the end of the street who's only known vice is that he rides a Harley.
The result of all this negative contact is certainly going to be more of these "targeted" inspections. Inevitably we will end up with a universal annual "safety" inspections and federally mandated smog certification of motorcycles (at a hefty fee for the "service" . My advice is save those OEM take-off parts, you will eventually need them to convert your beloved Vision back to stock to pass inspection.
But I could be wrong, we could actually be witnessing the death throes of western society and all this opinion-atin' could be just so many hot electrons.......anyone care to share the Garmin POI for the Thunder-Dome?
| |
| | |
Cruiser
Posts: 177
| Well excuse me, but way to stimulate the FUCKING economy by ticketing a bunch of bikers. LOUD pipes save lives, i mean really do you think that our bikes with LOUD pipes are killing the enviroment? Maybe you ought to check big buisness. You know what if some jackoff is doing wheely's and powerbraking give the dick a breatholizer, but let the rest of us ride on, and further more if your to stupid to abide that states law on helmet's you deserve that also. Come up to Muskegon MI. Bike Time the 17,18 and 19 of July and the cops won't harass you for having a good time. | |
| | |
Visionary
Posts: 1324
So Cal | I see a lot of cops riding these custom built HD knockoffs with loud pipes. Who's ticketing them? | |
| | |
Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | cjnoho - 2009-06-17 12:08 PM
I see a lot of cops riding these custom built HD knockoffs with loud pipes. Who's ticketing them?
LOL 
First time I used LOL 
Anyway, I found out talking to one of the LEO's one day admiring the Vision that a lot of the guys ride and ride exactly what you discribe playing the tough biker dude on their off time.
I will say I don't see any bikes pulled over that may be deserving, even those scatterbrained sport bikes that act a fool. I say we are fairly bike friendly here in Central Va. | |
| | |
Tourer
Posts: 363
Goldsboro, NC | Tarpits99 - 2009-06-16 2:22 PM
This type of jackass is the reason that law enforcement gets away with "profiling" or targeting motorcyclists.
All the rationalizations about the number of potential vehicle violations perpetrated by "cagers" mean little when you're sitting on the side of the road with a citation in your hand. I have been riding since I was 15 and the debates about excessive noise (and helmets) and "constitutional rights" have not changed in the intervening 40 years. All we have received for all the posturing and debate is more regulation. What does that tell you?
PERCEPTION IS REALITY (even when it's not).
While spot inspections such as those cited in this thread are certainly intended in the immediate near term to garner revenue, they are the end result of members of our community blatantly ignoring the law and flaunting social convention. Our own behavior makes us an easy target for revenue hungry municipalities.
True 'nuf in practice. That is a big problem. Too much is about perception and no one examines their viceral responses. For instance, how many people voted for our current president without even having the matter of his citizenship settled? (I'm not saying one way or another... just that a legitimate question was asked and those who had standing to challenge him did not do their job.)
Yes, bikers get beat on because of the few who act like male donkeys. The lookatme bunch have made people look at them and their mindnumbingly stupid antics. Those who see are quick to generalize and thus we all suffer. Unfortunately, those same male donkey lookatme's are not the type to respond civilly to suggestions of moderation. All they want is the next level of stupidity until they find themselves crowned with a non-DOT compliant dunce cap in their coffins.
And we all pay the price.
Paul Podbielski
the trailbarge | |
| | |
Iron Butt
Posts: 742
North Orange County CA | mgoblue - 2009-06-17 7:13 AM
Well excuse me, but way to stimulate the FUCKING economy by ticketing a bunch of bikers. LOUD pipes save lives, i mean really do you think that our bikes with LOUD pipes are killing the enviroment? Maybe you ought to check big buisness.
Unlike Varyder I am most assuredly not a "man of few words" but my views on the environment, helmets or modified exhausts, are actually irrelevant to the issue. Nowhere in the post did I imply that "loud pipes kill the environment", and engaging in the helmet debate or arguing the pros and cons of the EPA rules that make it illegal to modify your exhaust would be a colossal a waste of time. The laws exist and nothing we say is going to change that fact any more than tattooing a replica of the DOT certification sticker on the back of my head will make my skull a helmet.
The point I was trying to make was that motorcyclists should not be shocked, or outraged at the actions of the local constabulary when so many of us are blatantly and openly breaking the law. Not only are we violating the law, we are drawing lots of attention to ourselves while doing it, and alienating the non-riding public in the process.
Corporations dump chemicals, CEOs write themselves obscene compensation plans, credit card companies charge 30% interest and investment houses steal billions under the unsuspecting noses of regulators, investors and customers and get away with these acts because they do it discretely and surreptitiously.
Motorcyclists on the other hand are very rarely discrete, perhaps its not in our nature. Certainly it could be argued that nobody who owns a Victory Vision is trying to blend in.
Our mode of transportation separates us from the majority, our dress, our attitudes and unfortunately sometimes our behavior (and yes the noise) often brings us into the public eye. The most publicly recognized members of our community are guys like Billy Lane, Paul Teutul, Sonny Barger and the idiot kid on the rice rocket riding one wheel at 90+ on the freeway. These are not exactly a group of guys JOHN Q wants his daughter to date.
Targeting motorcycles in "safety checks" is not an attempt to stimulate the economy or some over-arching conspiracy against bikers, it is just government attempting to continue doing what it is charged to do as outlined in the preamble to the constitution. " form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common Defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity".
Government at all levels is going to be for the foreseeable future cash poor, the largest government cost center is public safety (police-fire-ambulance-prisons). City and county managers have no choice but to pay for those services, and if they can't pay for them with taxes ( property, income, etc) then they will pay for them with increased fees and fines. If you are broke and your largest cost center is your police department then you are going either cut costs (usually personnel, usually difficult) or try to turn the police into a profit center. The only way to do that is to write more citations. Not exactly a surprise is it?
Those 135 citations (at $85-$185 per infraction for the first offense plus court costs) bring in as much as $25,000 in one day. It does not take a CPA to figure out that overhead can be defrayed pretty quickly at that rate, especially if the officer is "nice" or the legislature is thinking straight and makes the ticket less than the cost of a lawyer and a day off work.
As Miles said "its about the money". When the public expects the government to be run more like a business; they shouldn't be surprised when it acts like one.
The city where I live has begun installing a lot of "no right turn on red" signs lately, this in a state where right on red has been the law for almost 50 years, any guesses why?
Since motorcyclists are one of society's "nails that stick up"; we are likely to be one of the first hammered down. I'm not saying I like it, I never said it was "fair" but I'm not at all surprised. Once again, keep all your OEM equipment; Nostradamus says you will eventually need it.
| |
| | |
Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | paul i come through your town quite often, "maybe" this weekend. my daughter lives just past GB from my direction.
seems like there's a lot bikes around your neck of the woods. | |
| | |
Cruiser
Posts: 177
| Well........Thank you for the speech......Very well put......You know I am an AMERICAN? Of course it's all about the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ That's all it's ever about. | |
| | |
Cruiser
Posts: 185
Nebraska | Oink Oink.........Bout all I got to say about that. | |
| | |
Iron Butt
Posts: 742
North Orange County CA | http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-johnson17-2009sep17,0,542...
Thought you might like to read the latest ANTI-MOTORCYCLE editorial from the LA TIMES. The comments are both illuminating and scary. | |
| | |
Tourer
Posts: 329
scotts valley, California | The word MODERATION has come up quite a bit in this thread, (which totally distracted me from the subject line), and moderation has always been a four letter word in my book. It is just not in my nature. What kind of an adrenlin rush can I get being moderate? Maybe I'm going off the deep end here a little, but are most riders of two wheeled vehicles people who moderate their activities? Do we, Vision owners, buy these bigger, better, faster, more radical machines because we might get a little radical on a lesser bike? Common..... I'm not the only obsessive compulsive person in the room.
Not to say that we should not be law-abiding; just that it is a little difficult for some of us. And, yes, it is very annoying to see police traps set up to capitalize on our little ideosyncracies (to get more back on the track of the thread). The flip side is that there are many badge wearing people out there who DO understand. A couple of months ago a buddy and I got stopped going 98-101mph, side abreast in the number one lane near the top of a mountain pass. The officer was a little hot when we got to the side of the road and said, "I just really want to know why you were riding like that." I responded with a smile, "It is a beautiful blue sky day and IT JUST FELT GOOD." We chatted for a little while, then he sent us on our way with a verbal request to slow down a little..... Some good, some bad, we play the cards we are delt. | |
| | |
Tourer
Posts: 363
Goldsboro, NC | Letter to the author of that article, John Johnson:
I should preface this by disclosing my personal feelings about loud pipes. I don't buy into the "loud pipes save lives" bit... I don't believe that the performance increase, if any, is worth the money... and I believe that loud pipes do more harm to motorcyclists' overall welfare than good. I'll get lambasted for this view, but it is mine and I'm keeping it. Debate, discussion and objectivity is welcome. Knee-jerk reactions and flames will be ignored.
That being said, I read the article and bristled all up and down my back. The author had a valid point to make. People may or may not agree with that point, but it was valid. That point is that there are enough bikes out there with loud exhausts congregating in nice riding areas to make it less enjoyable for those who do not like such things. That should have been the end of it.
However, in true i-have-a-degree-in-english-and-you-have-a-real-job snobbery, this particular laddie boy author (or old, decrepit, nasty old fart author, who cares?) decided to couch his otherwise valid point in a veritable sea of viceral, derisive and malicious scorn. Hate to break it to you, Johnny boy, but you lost your purpose with that choice. All you have done is alienate the very people that you might have reached with a valid point to consider and turned them into your enemies. The other consequence of that choice is to take those who know nothing of motorcycling and are thus not qualified to enter the debate and whipped them into a frenzy that clouds their judgement even further. I did not say, bay the way, that they have no right to debate. I simply say that they are not qualified. Nothing hurts a case worse than an unqualified advocate (look at Nancy Pelosi and Jimmy Carter, for example).
Finally, the author calls for and credits government intervention. Now THERE is a great idea! How many bailouts... how many attempts to socialize our economy... how much community organizer crime... how many medicare frauds and social security bankrupcies must you be faced with to understand that "the government should do something" is a phrase that should be uttered with trembling and fear? Targeted enforcement is as unconstitutional as targeted legislation. You want to enforce the sound and the smoke coming out of my bike? Fine, then also enforce the sound and the smoke coming out of that illegal alien's 1978 Matador. Enforce the sound coming from that lump-lump tuner from some 'hood somewhere. If you've got an axe to grind, grind it with ALL of the offenders. Target one segment of the population simply because you do not have any more skill at driving than you do a writing, or beacuse you are much braver facing a keyboard than facing the world, and you will find that one day someone will decide that your kind of writing (sic) is offensive and punish you for expressing yourself.
Oh, and by the way... although it was cute in a lillte-girl kind of way (hog Heaven, dog Heaven... yeah, we get it, how precious), the headline is rather uneducated. In motorcycle parlance "HOG" is the acronym for "Harley Owner's Group" and by association has also been used to refer to a HOG member's bike. That bike would be a Harley Davidson. Here is the huge, flaming epiphany... ready? There are other motorcycles out there. Other brands and other sytles. With that small datum, Mr. Johnson, you will be slightly less ignorant for your next hack piece... although I can't guarantee you'll be less stupid.
Paul Podbielski
Edited by trailbarge 2009-09-18 12:30 PM
| |
| | |
Tourer
Posts: 363
Goldsboro, NC | Tarpits99 - 2009-09-17 9:42 PM
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-johnson17-2009sep17,0,542...
Thought you might like to read the latest ANTI-MOTORCYCLE editorial from the LA TIMES. The comments are both illuminating and scary.
I suppose I should mention that this is the article that my previous post was talking about. | |
| | |
Cruiser
Posts: 271
Belding Michigan | Talk about wasting money time and peoples efforts. I think this guy has a hole in his head that is making more noise than any motorcycle exhaust makes. I for one have ridden quiet bikes even my Vision is stone stock does that make me better or more lawabiding than any one else? I don't think so. We ride for our own desires we ride a bike that reflects our own choices. I May not want to ride a loud bike but I defend anyones right to express themselves.
If you look closely at the guy in question he probaly has his own bad habits. He either drives to fast or picks his nose and flicks the boggers out the window or sings with the radio thereby adding to the pollution that he is trying to advocate against. If you don't like the way my motorcycle is then stay off the sidewalk eh road. Archie | |
| |
|
What's the purpose...?