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Visionary
Posts: 1436
| First off I've been riding more than 40 years and had Wings, HD baggers etc...
So anyhow about 2 weeks back I hit some tar snakes in my neck of the woods on a bend in the road, bike jumped a good foot side ways before regaining its composure. Needless to say I still am at a loss for were my under shorts are.
So I just returned yesterday from a 3k ride to GA and while there I encountered a road with literally thousands of tar snakes. The Vision was skating around so much I was forced to drop my speed to a ridiculously slow crawl and even at that speed it was unnerving and skating.
I should add that the bike first started doing this a few weeks back and I have since had the fork fluid replaced, but the front tire is at 18k (tread depth is still looking ok and I tend to change early. Bearings all feel fine on routine checks with no slop, but I did notice the bike is wandering on checkering as well.
So with that background info I'm considering a front tire change, but I'm really looking for any suggestions be it something to look at or a different brand of tire.
To let you know where I'm at on this and how bad the butt pucker factor was, I contemplated trading the Vision while on the ride back. I'd hate to resort to that cause I have really enjoyed this bike, so any input is appreciated. |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | i cant think of anything other than tires that would cause you to loose control. having the fork fluid changed wouldnt do anything with how your bike is handling on a straight flat road. i had something like that happen to me today! but i hit a freshly painted strip on the road! (yellow lines) and i thought i was going down... ive slipped on tar snakes on every bike ive owned. all having different makes and models of tires on them... |
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Visionary
Posts: 1484
LaPorte,Tx. | It has been so hot the last couple of weeks that the oil is bleeding out of tar strips and the oil/chip road here it Texas. Wife and I took one of those 1 foot slides last Monday out by Carlos, Texas. Air temperture was over 100, road temps. are really up there. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 60
| Is the skating coming through the handle bars or is it in the seat of the pants feel?
I it is the handle bars check the steering head bearing, seat of the pants could be rear swing arm. |
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Tourer
Posts: 363
Goldsboro, NC | I gotta agree with Arkainzeye.... tar snakes will make any bike slip. The only test to see if the bike was in error would be to take another bike through the same stretch UNDER THE SAME CONDITIONS.
Heat will make the road expand and squeeze more tar up. The tar is stickier with heat but has no shear strength. Of course, any moisture will make it slick.
I doubt you could tune any more than 10% of your slip out.... less, since you checked most of what could be wrong. Just take it as a good lesson learned about why we ride unfamiliar roads with more safety margin.
In my neighborhood, there is this guy who waters his lawn constantly. He's a nuisance in several ways, but the worst is that he does not aim his sprinklers well.... keeping the southbound lane wet. That lane is so wet so often that algae has grown. I slow down for the curve he is on because I know the road, but several bikes travelling through low side there because they expected the road to stay constant. I think he should be ticketed, but the cops say otherwise. |
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Tourer
Posts: 311
Atlanta Area | I gotta jump in here as well... Tar snakes are a fact of life... Every bike slips on them. Every tire slips on them... It really doesn't matter about brand of tire or bike because the tar is basically a slippery liquid on the road. Everything is going to slip...
That being said, I'm curious as to your thoughts about trading your Vision. I have been riding about 25+ years and the Vision is simply the best behaved, handling, comfortable bike I have ever ridden...
Tar Snakes be Damned, I'm Keepin' the Vision (Yes, I was slipping and sliding a few weeks ago in Helen, GA)
FYI, a few people have switched to the Bridgestones that were designed for the Goldwing with great initial results. Tigger put a set on his Vision right before the Helen meet and loved them. He did complain about the tar snakes, but everyone did. Make and model of bike made no difference. Tread life is still unknown at this point with the Bridgestones. Might be worth a shot... |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | Hit the 45,000 mark today going home. That means that I just put on a new front and rear tire together for the first time since owning the bike. I get 15k on the rear about 22,500 on the front, works out well. I also changed the fork oil, put on a new belt, changed the plugs, oil and oil filter, and new exhaust gaskets. This bike rides better than it was when it was brand new and is tight on the road, just love it.
As with the rest, hazards are, well, hazards and we just got to be mindful of them. I won't bore you any further with stories of hitting sand on blind curves or anti-freeze on the road at intersections for a earlier day accident, or when they put all the chemicals on the road for the snow we had around here. I started to put the bike up until a good rain came because the roads were slick where ever you didn't need them to be, at curves and at stop signs. But sell 'er? Never! |
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Visionary
Posts: 1436
| I suppose I should have known better but let me reiterate, I'm no rookie rider. This skating around is not normal on ANY bike I have ever ridden and I've ridden quite a few. I suppose I'll replace the tire and see if that makes any difference and post if it improves things.
On a side note, your individual experiences might well be a factor in what one considers good handling. Having ridden/owned most heavy tours made in the past 30 years or so, I must say the Vision is the "best handling on good roads" and worst handling on any type of road hazard. Checkering, dirt, gravel, metal bridge grating are all poorly handled by the Vision and I cannot think of any bike I've owned in the past 15 years which was worse on these hazards. Might be the tires so I guess I'll find out. If not it will be sold. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1158
Richmond, Virginia | WOW. Ok my 2 cents worth That is one broad statement to make. But if we look at this situation based on facts not emotions and we rule out personal "driving ability, history of riding bikes, ive owned more then you comments etc" with over
200 members on here and only one with this issue to state, wouldnt that suggest an isolated incident to you guys? Total respect for Teach, his years on the road his experience etc etc etc, but one has to look at the fact that no one else on this site has had the same reaction to riding conditions. ok. i'll go back in my cage where you can poke sticks at me.. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1484
LaPorte,Tx. | Teach - 2009-06-22 7:52 PM
I suppose I should have known better but let me reiterate, I'm no rookie rider. This skating around is not normal on ANY bike I have ever ridden and I've ridden quite a few. I suppose I'll replace the tire and see if that makes any difference and post if it improves things.
On a side note, your individual experiences might well be a factor in what one considers good handling. Having ridden/owned most heavy tours made in the past 30 years or so, I must say the Vision is the "best handling on good roads" and worst handling on any type of road hazard. Checkering, dirt, gravel, metal bridge grating are all poorly handled by the Vision and I cannot think of any bike I've owned in the past 15 years which was worse on these hazards. Might be the tires so I guess I'll find out. If not it will be sold.
I knew I should not have read this!!  |
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Visionary
Posts: 3204
Memphis | I've only been riding a little over 10 years on 4 different bikes and went over an expanded steel bridge in New England last fall. I was following a Harley guy on a Wide Glide with his girlfriend on the back and as soon as he hit the steel, his legs shot straight out and I thought he was going to drop it. He weaved 2-3 feet left and right of intended track all the way across. If I had set the cruise at 30 mph on the Vision I could have ridden across hands-off. The Vision handles grooved roads 10 times better than my Connie ever did. We have some really bumpy cloverleaf offramps here and I can take them 10-20 mph faster than other guys from work (including sport bikers) would dare on their rides. I haven't been on an extended gravel road yet but it's not because I don't think the Vision can handle it. I'm more concerned about gravel getting in the belt than I am about the handling. |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | Out of respect to you TEACH you should check the tires and replace as necessary, and of course check all of the "joints" on the Vision, swing arm and triple tree bearing. Something is amiss if you are still having these problems you continually bring up. It is confusing to me how you will say that the bike is great on good ground but the worse in adverse conditions.
I wished for a better bike when I road the Honda GoldWing GL1200. It was a sweet ride but was tough on anything not smooth and straight. I held on for dear life on many grated bridges and other situations. But the Vision continues to be the top-notch handler on anything. I got my helmet slapped going across a steel grated bridge no-handed. It kept the track easy and I maintained my pose to grab. (okay, I shouldn't have done it)
I consider myself an extreme novice as I've only got about 6 or 7 years total butt time. I'll say also, when I owned a bike during those years I was also an everyday rider.
And as I've said before, and I'd say it to anyone, sell it if you're not satisfied with it. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1350
| I have noticed with the Vision that she reacts differently. Perhaps it's the Center of Gravity and the trunk so high up? I only feel uncomfortable when it's a new situation. The first time I rode in a good wind storm. O.O Now she rides like any other bike just her personality. I hit a patch of ice this winter and ouch. Once I got used to her all was fine. There were a few times I had to ride over ice because someone plowed the snow from the driveway across the street leaving 2 mounds of ice.
As race car drivers know it's not just about tires. Tire pressure to your style of riding, suspension adjustment, fork oil was a good guess but when I changed my '99s I put in a little extra and like the way she feels, you mention stuff like bearings now is that wheel bearing and swingarm bearings/guides? Is the Vision load balanced? I tend to put more in 1 saddlebag than the other. I know she feels different when I am sitting down in the seat instead of sitting up. Is there another reason you don't care for the Vision and the handling is an easy excuse? Sometimes we use one instead of the other.
Of course if you are not happy nothing any of us say or do will change your mind. Sell the bike and get what you like. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1436
| varyder, your experience with the 1200 sounds about the same. The bike is up on the lift so I'll be pulling her apart front and rear to see if anything is amiss. New tire is on order so I'll get that on in the next couple days. Heck will probably take me that long to pull it all apart and get it all back together.
So you guys know this is not about likes or dislike. When I post it generally has a purpose. Somethings broke, a question about something I've noticed, etc. So while it may appear I have nothing but problems or that I am "unhappy" wth the vision, that is not the case. Just in the past week I've had six 500 mile days. In this case I'm having an "unusual" amount of hop/slip/loss of control and was looking for any suggestions as to correcting this. Sometimes someone else has experienced the same and found some magic bullet.
That said if I can't find a cure I won't keep the bike. You need to feel "safe" with the ridability because there are just too many other things that cn bite you without those concerns. I hope this explains where I am coming from, you all ride safe...... T |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | The GL1200 and the Vision are two entirely different bikes. yeah, both are classed as motorcycles, have two wheels, handle bars and a motor. But the GL1200 is a tubed frame that flexs and personnally feel that the weight is too much for the suspension.
The Vision on the other hand, seeing it up close and personal, is a solid frame on a solid suspension. Victory takes simplecity to the max and makes one fine bike. I had to "learn" how to ride the Vision coming off the goldwing. I believe if I went with any other bike it would have been much like riding the wing. When I got on the vision I tried riding it like I was on the wing to my determent. Once I quit riding it like the wing and rode it like a Vision it is a night and day ride. I've described all my differences in many, many other post so I wont rehash it here.
Even with the new tires, the first time since new and fork fluid change being way past due the vision rode "funny" when I took it for the test ride Saturday. But it took just a few miles to realized that I had been running on a squishy front end and worn out tires before and everything is now new again.
It might not make any sense to anyone else, but I know what I'm saying. So with all that said, you have a problem with THAT Vision that needs to be corrected. Could be the bearings on the forks, something bent, though I don't know how, brakes dragging, axles loose, or something out of the ordinary.
I know I didn't need to explain all that being a man of few words, but this makes about the 5th or 6th post from you Teach concerning a handling problem and saying you're selling the bike. My concern is if it indeeds handles as you say and you have the experience as a biker that you say you do, I would not even dare get on the bike, period.
When the rear wheel bearing was "suspected" in going on my GL1200, I went and got a GL1500 because I felt "unsafe" on the 12 and sold it with the problem up front as to why I was selling it. To my knowledge the new owner, a dirt bike racer and mechanic fixed it. The 15 I felt unsafe because it was too tall and top heavy and had my share of almost dropping it several times by myself. My wife never rode with me on it because I did not want to take a chance. I had it just about a month and it was in on ebay for sale. So please, don't ride until you figure it out. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 60
Denver | I have about the same amount of riding time as some have stated (started riding at 16 now farting dust). Every bike I have ever owned has moved around on the tar snakes including my 1800 goldwings. If the tar has been there for some time and has been driven over a lot then there is no movement, but if it is guey (sp) and thick then the bike moves around. We just came back from Escalante, UT and all the bikes moved on the tar snakes (wing, hd, and vision) the only one who moved less was the wing with the car tire on the rear...
Willy |
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Visionary
Posts: 1436
| Just a quick update; looks like its the front tire and the shock bushings. I'll have both on Friday and be back up and rolling. Everything else looks tight and I'll post if it doesn't make a difference but I suspect these items will cure it.
Oh and decided to go with an Avon this time. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 965
New York State | I have ridden Triumphs mostly they tend to react badly to adverse road conditions.
My Vision is the most surefooted bike I have ever had the pleasure to ride. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 742
North Orange County CA | Teach :
Didnt you have to replace shock bushings last fall?
Do these parts have a standard maintenance/replacement interval?
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Visionary
Posts: 1484
LaPorte,Tx. | There is suppose to be an inspection every 5000 miles and lubrication every 15000 miles. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1436
| Fred, yes I did have the center bushing go last year shortly after I bought the bike. I'm not sure why I've had two go but hopefully this will be the last time for a while.
VisionTex, yes you are correct but I would encourage folks to do it more frequent. The bike collects a LOT of dirt under the seat where these bushings are located so a little EXTRA effort to clean around them may help. At least that my future plan.
I'm still waiting on the tire and bushing that weren't on the truck and are now real late, but I will post if this fixes the handling issue. Like I stated I'm 99.99% sure it will.
It would be UNFAIR of me to not post my stupidity on this issue. I was more closely inspecting the front tire and discovered much to my amusement that I had read the tire completely wrong. The E3 has that dual compound in the center it is harder for longer wear. This is a feature I generally try to avoid but none the less it is there. So when inspecting I have looked at the center and outer tread depth paying little attention to the most frequent contact area (the 1" on either side of center), which in my case was completely without tread. I don't know how I failed to notice other than complacency on my part, but it appears to be the culprit. I'm going to try the Avon this time as I only ran 18k before wearing the E3 out. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1484
LaPorte,Tx. | Teach, can you tell us what makes you think the E-3 off a Vision is a dual compound tire. I have researched Dunlap and there is no mention it is dual compound. Some of thier sport touring tires are dual compound, but no mention of that on the E-3. Also, reading up on the FAQ at the Dunlap site, it states that if there is excessive wear on the sides of the tread and not in the middle, then the tire is under inflated. In talking to guys with the Avons on the Gold Wing, they don't get the mileage that the Dunlap gets. Anyway good luck with the install, hope your back up soon. I'd be interested on what is worn out on the shock linkage. I'm taking my Vision in for the 30,000 mile do over next week, lubing the shock linkage is on the agenda. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1436
| VisionTex, the E3 has a dual compound. The center strip about 1" directly in the center has a stiffer compound added for improved mileage (according to Dunlop when I talked with them). Thats why a lot of folks notice a raised center strip on the tire after a few thousand miles.
You are correct about outer wear being indicative of under inflation, but that reference is to "outer" wear. I was referring to the area just right and left of center, more mid tire so to speak. If you look at your E3 you'll notice an area approx. 1" in the very center that if you look closely appears slightly raised. Just to the right & left of this area are your tire wear strips and the area I failed to pay attention to.
As for the Avons? I've run them before just not on the Vision. My experience is they wear as well as any tire, BUT they do wear out all of the sudden. I mean you'll go say 10k with no signs of wear and then it wears rapidly, if that makes sense.
The shock linkage is fine, BUT the center bushing is bad for the second time. Just too much slop which allows up and down movement not accompanied by the suspension. I don't run much air pressure so it probably isn't that its getting banged around too much. Who knows but it looks like tomorrow now for the tire, damn UPS. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 117
South of Houston Tx | The E3 front tire is definitely dual compound. I have read this before ...somewhere, and after 16k it was very obvious on my vision. I just replaced my tires, at first I was only going to replace just the rear because it was slick, but the front looked to still have tread much like Teach is saying. The 1" center was easily seen when I changed them. I noticed that mine didn't handle well on wet spots any more with it trying to come out from underneath me on more than one occasion, but I didn't realize how bad the handling suffered from those worn tires until I got the new ones on her. I debated going with a different brand, but I knew how well it rode when she was new and decided to go back with the E3's, I am glad I did. I guess as the tires wear, you gradually compensate for the handling so you don't notice it is as bad as it is. Once I had the new tires on though it was full tilt in the corners once again, I know it was my regained confidence that I really never new I lost that accounts for it, but it almost seems as the vision's engine even runs better and has more power since replacing the tires! |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | I'm curious as to why Dunlop doesn't brag on the E3 being a dual compound on their website. But none the less it is a great tire and I ran mine well past the wear bars just to be able to get use out of the rear and change them together at the 45K mark. Indeed the ride is better than when it was new it seems.
I didn't notice the ridge but will pay attention this go round in about 10K miles to see if it prevalent. Even with the tire wear I felt the E3 did very well in the rain and found myself in those circumstances without concern except on exit ramps. Now with that said, I'm like that when it rains anytime as who knows what might be there that will make it slick... |
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Visionary
Posts: 1436
| varyder & VT, maybe the wording "dual compound" is misleading. If what I understand to be true is accurate the manufacturer makes certain area's of the tire more dense for rigidity and/or wear resistance. In the case of the E3 this more dense area is dead center. It isn't new technology and is/was a pretty common feature on many Bridgestone tires as early as the 1990's. If you run a lot of interstate or straight roads it is a great feature which will get you some extra miles. If you ride a lot of twisty roads like I do it tends to raise the center accenting this 1' strip down the center.
I suppose I should have just paid closer attention, it isn't like I've never run tires like the E3 before. I'm gonna chock it up to excitement about getting back out on the road for my first summer trip, lol.
ps... just so the question is answered I always run 40-42 psi in both front and rear, and I check pressure at least every 3rd day. |
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looking for input