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Visionary
Posts: 1436
| I emailed super brace a couple months back about a brace for the Vision. If you've ridden GW's you are probably familiar with this company and the product. Needless to say heavy bikes like the GW and Vision have a great deal of fork flex (whether you notice or not) and this brace does a great job of eliminating it.
Well they don't currently make one for the Vision and they don't plan for builds until the riding season is all but over. So now that summer is coming to an end they will be reviewing which bikes to make them for and which to not make. You might have guessed I'd really like to see one for the Vision.
So if you have a spare moment to go to this link http://www.superbrace.com/press.html
and contact them with an inquiry, and enough folks do it they will likely offer one before spring. Thanks for your help in advance...... T |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 965
New York State | I asked if they will produce one for the Vision |
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Cruiser
Posts: 205
| +1. Email sent. |
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Tourer
Posts: 301
Buffalo Grove,Ill | + 1 email sent |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | hmmm, is there a dummy in the crowd? yes, you, the man from Virginia.
uh, yes, I've been riding for a very few years and I've never heard of this this fork flex thing, whether i've noticed it or not. i know i have a heavy, ah, bike and hinder end but i cannot see the benefit in such a device. uh, what kind of deviation are we talking about in such a study material in a short span. sure i've read the testimonially and take to heart the words of advise from my fellow riders, but i've not heard or seen anyone say that they wreck, broke, or otherwise was out of wack without this device. nor have i had anyone come up to me a say, you got to have this thing, it is something they forgot to do at the factory and i have to clunk down more change to add this to my bike.
with that said, i can see racers, dirt, track, etc who really put a beating on their machine in adverse conditions, but for a solid road touring bike that even at best on a twistie is not even near the pounding a race or dirt bike endures any great length of time, do i really need this thing?
sorry for the tone but it is like telling me that i need the water injection system from the '70's to save on fuel because the manufacturers are in cahoots with the oil company to get you to spend more money... not skeptical on this thing, just uneducated, please explain more.... |
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Tourer
Posts: 363
Goldsboro, NC | varyder - 2009-08-20 11:23 AM
.. not skeptical on this thing, just uneducated, please explain more....
This is the first I've heard of the device as well. However, as an engineer I can see how the thing might be useful. Someone please tell me if I'm wrong on this.
Under braking (especially if you hit a bump/pothole while under braking), the forks will deflect back towards the frame. Draw a diagram and you will see it. This puts a lot of stress on the telescoping joints and it also counteracts the trail that gives the bike its stability.
Under heavy braking, that trail can turn your front wheel into a caster, which is much less stable and can put unwanted steering input into a system you are trying to keep steady. Some sort of truss on the back side of the forks might stiffen the forks in bending and reduce this tendency. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 204
guelph ontario | I have had a fork brace on my GW a few years ago. Didnt notice any difference. I think unless you ride hard with load and over bumpy terrain that you probably dont need one. So far have not noticed any front end flex on the Vision. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Had a long talk with a Vic engineer about fork braces a while ago[years]. Basically he said the reason that Vic speced such a fat axle on the bikes was that it worked to tie the forks together as well as a fork brace.
Edited by kevinx 2009-08-20 12:38 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | Probie - 2009-08-20 12:31 PM
I have had a fork brace on my GW a few years ago. Didnt notice any difference. I think unless you ride hard with load and over bumpy terrain that you probably dont need one. So far have not noticed any front end flex on the Vision.
That's what i see as well. I've stretched my mind to find a sensible application on the vision but i just don't see it being that flimsy to warrant it. i do see the effect is similar to taping your fingers together to strengthen them, so the principle is understood. I can also understand that in the scheme of things, any flex relative would never be felt no matter how extreme. It has been pointed out, the axle is thick, eliminating any give as depicted in the exaggerated animation. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 965
New York State | Good Morning and thanks for your interest. Yes, we are looking for a Victory Vision with stock front suspension to work with. Are in the Southern CA/ Huntington Beach area and interested in a freebie for stopping by a couple times for quick measurements? We're here Monday through Saturday 7am -5pm. If you can't make those times, I'm sure we can arrange something else. If you aren't, do you know anybody that is?
We do also carry some other Victory Vision accessories through our other company, American Motorcycle Accessories: http://www.americanmotorcycleaccessories.com/products.asp?cat=78.
Safe Riding,
SuperBrace - the Ultimate Fork Stabilizer
www.superbrace.com
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Tourer
Posts: 460
Centennial, CO | kevinx - 2009-08-20 10:38 AM
Had a long talk with a Vic engineer about fork braces a while ago[years]. Basically he said the reason that Vic speced such a fat axle on the bikes was that it worked to tie the forks together as well as a fork brace.
So, if you had this discussion, how does this relate to you asking us to have them built? If I understand correctly, the forks are as good as without braces. Did I miss something? I am sure we'll have more discussion about this while you are in Denver this weekend. But I thought I would ask here for all parties to get the bigger picture.
Here is my concern. When I drop off of a curb (residential without a pan), I find that the trunk adds enough weight to cause my bike to flex at the triple tree. I can even make this happen while sitting still and moving the handle bars back and forth. IOW I feel the front moving one way while the back is moving another. This is different than what you are discussing here...but THIS is what I would rather have corrected than the forks (AT THIS TIME). |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | the handle bars are rubber mounted and i can move them. i check when i go down the road some time just see if i can find play in the front. i know, this ain't a good way to do and the only way to be sure is to jack up the front and check. is this what you are feeling or is it distinctly the triple tree? at 50,000 i'm checking for wear points and what needs to be replaced.
on the discussion of forks, i'm wonder if the 8-ball forks are also shorter \8/ |
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Tourer
Posts: 460
Centennial, CO | varyder - 2009-08-20 11:19 AM
the handle bars are rubber mounted and i can move them. i check when i go down the road some time just see if i can find play in the front. i know, this ain't a good way to do and the only way to be sure is to jack up the front and check. is this what you are feeling or is it distinctly the triple tree? at 50,000 i'm checking for wear points and what needs to be replaced.
on the discussion of forks, i'm wonder if the 8-ball forks are also shorter \8/
I believe they only pushed them up the triple tree about an inch to get the difference. This is what Arlen does with his Vision. He pushed the tubes up into the tree about 1 inch or so. |
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Tourer
Posts: 547
Mount Vernon, WA United States | While I can see this on many bikes, I'm not sure the Vision isn't already designed to not need this. A good place to look is when there is a Dyno at an event. Ever notice they don't even need to tie down the back of a Victory it's so stable. If you look at the front end of some non-Victory bikes on a Dyno, it'll downright scare ya the way the forks bend back at different points as the throttle is applied. The most a Vic does is compress the shocks. |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | i've lived such a sheltered life. I need to get out more and see these stuff... |
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Cruiser
Posts: 296
Central Florida | response this am from Super-Brace, anyone able to take them up on this??
Good Morning and thanks for your interest. Yes, we are looking for a Victory Vision with stock front suspension to work with. Are in the Southern CA/ Huntington Beach area and interested in a freebie for stopping by a couple times for quick measurements? We're here Monday through Saturday 7am -5pm. If you can't make those times, I'm sure we can arrange something else. If you aren't, do you know anybody that is?
We do also carry some other Victory Vision accessories through our other company, American Motorcycle Accessories: http://www.americanmotorcycleaccessories.com/products.asp?cat=78.
Safe Riding,
SuperBrace - the Ultimate Fork Stabilizer
www.superbrace.com |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | They're not american, most of their support is for ricers. the only "accessory" i see is the link they gave you db - flag poles for flat rack.
money i can use for something else.
ride safe... |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | ElroyJ - 2009-08-20 1:12 PM
kevinx - 2009-08-20 10:38 AM
Had a long talk with a Vic engineer about fork braces a while ago[years]. Basically he said the reason that Vic speced such a fat axle on the bikes was that it worked to tie the forks together as well as a fork brace.
So, if you had this discussion, how does this relate to you asking us to have them built? If I understand correctly, the forks are as good as without braces. Did I miss something? I am sure we'll have more discussion about this while you are in Denver this weekend. But I thought I would ask here for all parties to get the bigger picture.
Here is my concern. When I drop off of a curb (residential without a pan), I find that the trunk adds enough weight to cause my bike to flex at the triple tree. I can even make this happen while sitting still and moving the handle bars back and forth. IOW I feel the front moving one way while the back is moving another. This is different than what you are discussing here...but THIS is what I would rather have corrected than the forks (AT THIS TIME).
The only thing a fork brace does is to keep the lower tubes travelling paralell, and at the same rate as each other. That way one side does not go up while the other stays down. A fork brace does not keep the tubes from flexing fore, and aft |
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Visionary
Posts: 1436
| Kevinx, that last post is exactly right. It ALSO prevents the forks from flexing or perhaps a better word would be "twisting" when taking very tight turns with the bike leaned well over. This takes stress off the sliders and bushings, working in conjuntion with the axle.
Let me clear this up; I am NOT advocating or PROMOTING the use of this product. I've used it on GW's in the past and liked the improvements I found with this product installed. All I asked is that folks drop a quick email if they have time inquiring as to the availability of this product for the Vision. This might entice (it appears it has) Superbrace to manufacture one for the Vision. I believe ANYONE who decides to install one will feel the benefit immediately. However if all you do is ride interstate and straight roads, you don't need it.
I sure hope someone out in the Huntington Beach area can hook up with these folks to get a free brace for the hassle of allowing them to get a few measurements. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1436
| Varyder, I wanted to specifically address your comments. You said you don't believe you are getting any flex and don't see a benefit to this product, to abbreviate what you stated. I would be willing to bet when you lean into a corner you hear the brake rotors rub.... Thats flex causing that. Hope that provides a real example of what we're talking about.
Edited by Teach 2009-08-25 2:05 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | I'll have to go out on the twisties to try this out, my pleasure. What I have heard is the whine from the E3s but I can't place rotors rubbing, not saying that it doesn't, but I'm might be sissying out before they do...
Edited by varyder 2009-08-25 2:09 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 1436
| va, you should be able to hear it without getting very aggressive. Mine does it on almost every curve in the road, has sice new and all the Visions in the local club have noticed the same rubbing. Hope this explanation gives you a better idea of what fork flex is. I wasn'ttrying to single you out but rather provide you with a tangible model. Let me know what you hear....... Ride safe...... T |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Teach - 2009-08-25 2:04 PM
Varyder, I wanted to specifically address your comments. You said you don't believe you are getting any flex and don't see a benefit to this product, to abbreviate what you stated. I would be willing to bet when you lean into a corner you hear the brake rotors rub.... Thats flex causing that. Hope that provides a real example of what we're talking about.
Not a chance that you are getting enough flex against the lower tube in that situation to twist the calipers into conacting the rotors. The size of the tube, and the proximity to the structural axle make it impossible. This is not a GW with 14mm axle. It is a Vision with a 22mm axle. A fork brace is not going to do you much good if any at all. All that being said I have installed, and used brace's in many of my past bikes, but with a Vic it is pointless |
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Visionary
Posts: 1436
| kevinx, I'm not going to debate this with you and again let me remind you I am NOT trying to sell anyone on fork braces. You said there is not a chance I'm getting enough flex on the forks to twist the calipers against the rotor. Thats fine if thats what you believe. I on the other hand KNOW what is rubbing and when. Ask your clients if they have heard a rubbing sound when they lean the bike into a curve.
A brace might not be the answer, but at this point I am committed to give it a go if superbrace offers one up. I figure if it worked on my other bikes, it might just do the trick on this one as well. Can't hurt a thing to give it a go.
Now what I don't get is all the "ANTI" or "its pointless" commentary. If it is pointless folks will realize this rather quickly and word will be opposed to the use. If pointless superbrace wouldn't be considering a brace for the Vision. If it works, well we all have another option to improve performance and handling.
If it is pointless from your perspective by all means don't add one. My reasons for the request have been stated, do or don't as you see fit. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | *LOL* I'm not anti fork brace, but in this application I do feel it is pointless.
This is not a spindly front end. It uses 43mm tubes, and solid 22mm axle. In 00-01 Vic used a fork brace on the SC, and it was kinda flimsy in the mounting area. I asked an engineer about it, and he commented that the brace was for appearance only. The thick walled tubes, and large diameter axle made the brace unnecessary. I ran braces on several old Hondas, and a couple of HD's including a 82FXR, and it made a huge difference. Just don't see it here. I
Now I have never even hinted that you were going to profit on this, and if you did I would applaud your efforts. The only reason I have even commented here is to temper conjecture with reality |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | 
Edited by varyder 2009-08-25 9:41 PM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 935
Rockford, IL | I'm going to jump in on this and make a subtle suggestion to KevinX....
First...I give ya props and respect and such for your knowledge and wisdom about bikes and the massive amount of information you share with the whole Vic community. I don't think you have an idea how valuable you are to everyone in it !!!
But...I think you might be slightly off-base on your opinions with this Superbrace. It really does sound like you are going with your gut instinct and not giving them a chance, and I can't blame you for doing so, the "gut-instinct method" is usally pretty damn good and works well for most folks.
But...It also sounds like you can probably benefit with doing some in-depth research on Superbrace and the ins-outs/pro-cons of how they work and such. To be honest I haven't done this research, however I'm going to order one as soon as they are made available. I've run them on two bikes in the past and they have made a fairly dramatic improvement and have been well worth the investment of money and the labor. Prior to purchasing them I did do a little bit of research and got the basic understanding of how they work and such, and I read the reviews and talked to a few folks on a few forums.
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | I guess people keep missing the part where I say I HAVE used them on bikes that THAT NEEDED THEM; with positive results. Funny thing is that I have spent a good deal of time on the other side of this conversation, but that was with front ends that were structuraly deficiant to the forks on a Vision. Had a CB750 that was AWFUL with flex issues. Go across a painted stripe, and it would steer the bike. Put a brace on, and it was a different animal. Trying to convince my friends though was like beating my head against the wall. I'm not trying to argue, or operating on gut. Hell I had no intention of doing anything other then making a factual comment based on my expieriance, and what I was told by a Victory engineer |
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Visionary
Posts: 1436
| kevinx, sorry if you felt the "anti" comment was directed at you, it wasn't. It was intended to be a general comment. And I agree you bring a wealth of information and expertise to this site. With this said what the Victory engineers spec out is fine, but it has fallen short at least from my saddle. If you asked the engineers of the twin towers if they could fall they would have told you no way, but they did.
The forks on my Vision flex at least as much as those on my 96 Wing. My hope is that the brace will eliminate some of the squirming on road hazard and when leaned over. If it doesn't' work I'm out a few hundred bucks but otherwise unharmed.
I appreciate your input and experience with regards to this topic, the fact you have discussed this with the engineers. I believe they are mistaken and the Vision will benefit from a brace. The only way to know is to try one once they are offered and that's all I'm proposing "I" do.
Lol, funny that something this simple could become so controversial. My sincere apology if I offended you Kevin. I am a bit abrupt with posts which can result in them being misinterpreted. I'm going to ban myself from typing soon, lol... Be safe my friend....... T |
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Visionary
Posts: 2118
Pitt Meadows, BC Canada | WALLOWING. This is the word that comes to my mind when I thing of fork brace - I owned several bikes that 'wallowed' in turns, and the installation of a fork brace solved the problem - dramatically.
But my Vision 'IN NO WAY' wallows - so I personally see no need for one - the bike handles like it should. "If it ain't broke - don't fix it". |
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Cruiser
Posts: 162
Extreme Southern, AZ United States | Mine doesn't rub in the turns. Granted it is brand new, but I get nothing like you mention Teach. |
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Tourer
Posts: 432
Gettysburg, 2008 Tour Premium | I ran a Superbrace on y GL1800 and the differeence was very noticable. I am not inclined to run one on m y vision for the simple reason the bike is the best handling and most stable cornering big tour rig I have owned. I percive no bump steer in corners. My vision handles better without a Superbrace than my GL1800 did with a Superbrace..............so the Superbrace is a solution to a problem that doen not exist in my opinion. Have to go with Kevin on this one. |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Teach,
Never meant to offend, nor have I been offended. We just seem to butt heads in spite of out intent. Carry on, and I will bow out of this topic |
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Visionary
Posts: 1436
| Kevinx, yep I suppose we do, lol... Tell you what..... I buy the first rond of coffee's when I get down your way. I'm going to back away from this one as well and just wait to see what comes of the brace manufacturing. Be safe.... T |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 23
Fort Worth | I rode a Fat Boy for a few years before upgrading to a Kingpin. One of the things I liked best about the Kingpin was the stability in the twisties, which I attributed (at least in part) to the inverted front forks. As an engineer I really like the inverted fork design because of its inherant rigidity. I was dissappointed when I found out Victory did not use the inverted fork design on the Vision. Maybe its my imagination, but I don't believe my Vision is quite as solid in the twisties as my Kingpin. As soon as the fork brace is available I'm going to put it on my Vision. Anything that reduces frame flex and fork twist is a good idea in my book.
And by the way, the 2010 Vision Cross Roads has inverted forks. I wonder if our Visions have conventional forks because the larger triple trees of the inverted design don't fit between the fuel tanks as well(?) |
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Visionary
Posts: 1436
| TXV, yep the inverted would have removed a great deal of flex. The problem with the desciption of flex is that it implies a front o back or sideways twist. While those could occur it is really more of a bowing effect as the springs compress. So yes it ties the two forks together in conjunction with the axle but it also prevents the forks bowing out as they compress.
For the record I didn't initially feel the forks warranted a brace, but after 20+k of riding her I will definitely be installing one. I'll also be installing stiffer/progressive fork springs and likely adding preload. The forks are a weak link and I'm not that aggressive. Need proof? Look at the accidents Vision riders have experienced so far; Low side tip overs, and high speed wobble. I won't even mention the skating when behind big vehicles. May or may not be entirely fork related but I'll let you know when I get the front end stable. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 153
Newnan, GA | KevinI just sold My Goldwing (with a Traxxion Suspension and a Kuryakyn Fork brace). The front suspension sucked and the Goldwing forks tubes were so flimsy that you could torque the bars right and left (HARD) in rapid concession and see the front wheel/Fender Assy begin to lag the direction that you were pushing the bars. That’s one reason why I added the fork brace.
I have been searching the threads to find the answer to my question (Does the Vision need a Fork Brace?) that you have provided.
Thanks
Kevin - 2009-08-25 3:30 PM This is not a GW with 14mm axle. It is a Vision with a 22mm axle. A fork brace is not going to do you much good if any at all. All that being said I have installed, and used brace's in many of my past bikes, but with a Vic it is pointless
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Iron Butt
Posts: 810
| Nice animation for the textually challenged.
http://www.superbrace.com/simulation.htmlI always buy the magazines for the articles =).
Edited by TimS 2009-11-30 2:44 PM
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Tourer
Posts: 394
Tucson, AZ | Look, I'm no engineer, or do I play one on tv, but I've owned three Honda 1500 GW. Had a Super Braces on two of them. I didn't find a difference whether the brace was on or not. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 742
North Orange County CA | I stopped by Superbrace this morning so that they could measure my Vision for a possible installation.
Any academic discussion about whether or not the bike will benefit from a fork brace may be irrelevant. There is so little clearance between the fork lowers , the gas tanks and inner fairing when the bars are at full lock that it does not appear to be feasible to build a Superbrace style fork-brace for this bike.
They took some measurements, I'll let you know if there are any further developments. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 741
Central New York | Lets just encase the front third of the bike in concrete. No flex, no break, no bounce, and no wallow. |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | thanks for the suggestion glighto11, while I have my Vision down replacing the front steering bearing I'll get me some Sacrete and brace it up. lOl |
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New user
Posts: 1
| if you ever question I need for a brace on a Victory Vision, you just need to ask yourself why do the front fenders crack on the 2008 Victory Vision. |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| Mcpapadoc - 2014-11-09 12:52 AM if you ever question I need for a brace on a Victory Vision, you just need to ask yourself why do the front fenders crack on the 2008 Victory Vision. Its not do to front end flexing am sure of that |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| who know maybe next year we will have the same forks as a cc it would cut Vic coast |
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Help request