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Visionary
Posts: 3204
Memphis | I have never ridden a Harley and would like to know what the main differences are between the two motors. What would a Harley guy notice? Good or bad. I'm just trying to sound more educated when talking about the Vision vs. the rest.
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Visionary
Posts: 1484
LaPorte,Tx. | Songfan, I have a very good friend that has a 07 Ultra Classic and a Big Dog. He went with me to ride the Visions when the demo ride came to Houston last year. As far as his comment on the difference between the motors was how quite the Victory motor mechanically is compared to the HD. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 64
Northern RI | This is a one word answer; POWER |
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Cruiser
Posts: 136
CALGARY ALBERTA | There are a lot of differences. The HD 96 has a separate motor and tranny thus giving it less strength. This in turn causes HP loss. The HD being a pushrod engine verses the overhead cams of the Victory. To me, a long term HD rider, I notice the cam chain noise on a stock Vision.
Then again if you cam up the HD it can be noisier as well. (Give and Take) The Vision has plenty of power when you want it, which develops easier than the HD. The Victory has the gear drive primary verses the chain drive of the HD. Chains get loose and make noise. Gears get loose and whine. I haven't heard a The HD has rubber mount on it's touring bikes verses the balancing of the Vision.
The HD is a great bike to ride in its present form of 96" and 6 speed tranny. The Vision is better in my opinion on a huge list of positives. The HD still looks great until you go to a bike event and it's lost in the crowd. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I smitten with my girl. (Vision) |
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Cruiser
Posts: 136
CALGARY ALBERTA | There are a lot of differences. The HD 96 has a separate motor and tranny thus giving it less strength. This in turn causes HP loss. The HD being a pushrod engine verses the overhead cams of the Victory. To me, a long term HD rider, I notice the cam chain noise on a stock Vision.
Then again if you cam up the HD it can be noisier as well. (Give and Take) The Vision has plenty of power when you want it, which develops easier than the HD. The Victory has the gear drive primary verses the chain drive of the HD. Chains get loose and make noise. Gears get loose and whine. I haven't heard a Victory whine. The HD has rubber mount on it's touring bikes verses the balancing of the Vision.
The HD is a great bike to ride in its present form of 96" and 6 speed tranny. The Vision is better in my opinion on a huge list of positives. The HD still looks great until you go to a bike event and it's lost in the crowd. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I smitten with my girl. (Vision) |
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New user
Posts: 2
Munford Tennessee | I rented an ultra classic this past weekend in a quest to choose between the ultra and vision. I presently ride a 03 TC .The ultra rode good, handled great but was a turd in the power department.
It was smooth running and Quiet just no power. The rental was an 08 with 4 miles on.Ive rode the vision and it will out run it easily. My old TC will smoke them both.
Vision wanna be |
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Visionary
Posts: 3204
Memphis | Bobby B, Great answer. Thanks. That's exactly the kind of specifics I'm talking about. A lot has been made of the huge airbox on the Vision. Does this play a major role in the way the motor makes power? Is the stock Freedom 106 with the big airbox as powerful as the Screamin Eagle 110? That's the comparo the Harley guys seem to want, even though it costs $14,000 more on the Ultra. I spend $500 on a Stage 1/Level 1 upgrade and they cry foul. Cracks me up.
Having an engine limiter on the Vision is agonizing because I'd really like to know just how fast a stock one can top out at. I know why they (Victory lawyers) did it but it still kills me not to know.
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Tourer
Posts: 496
Scottsdale AZ | Like Song Fan, I would like some comparison of the V to the Screamin Eagle 110. One of my buddies bought the SE and commented that if the V had a 106 his SE would walk away. ??? He and I have not hooked up to trade out and compare yet. How about the torque comparison also?? I think he also went with a stage two.
Anyone here know how the two stack up????????? |
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Visionary
Posts: 3204
Memphis | H-D claims 115 ft lbs torque on the SE 110. (I'm guessing at the crank?) I've seen dyno runs online of 87.5 h.p/106 ft lbs torque for a factory 110. Doesn't exactly sound like it would walk away from a V. Do the two engines have a different "hit" or power band? Does the big airbox come into play at the higher RPM's?
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Cruiser
Posts: 294
rhode island | songfan, I believe mike shultz clocked 125mph on his delivery ride out of arizona, He also said it had more left. As a side note he road about 70 miles from the back seat at 80mph, talk about a balanced motorcycle. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 619
Southeast Iowa | IRDEW
I'm not sure your TC would smoke the Vision unless you have done some pretty good mods. to it. My last ride was an 05 TC with Stage 2 (Big Bore kit, Air Cleaner, re-flash & pipes. She ran hard and pulled like a freight train. One big difference between the TC and a Vision though...............The Vision is smooth, very smooth. So smooth you don't realize how fast it is accelerating. The Vision does not appear to pull as hard as my TC did, but I think the speedo would say differently. Even if a TC could stay with a Vision up to 85-90 mph things would change quickly after that. I'm not bassing the TC at all, had one, loved it, would still own it if I could afford 3 bikes. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 904
29 Palms California | The HD engine is scheduled to self destuct at around 30k. Unless you get the cams replaced with after market. |
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Visionary
Posts: 3204
Memphis | I totally agree with Big Vic about the smoothness causing the bike to be deceptively fast. Another factor there is the absolute lack of windblast. Your upper body has no reason to believe that you are accelerating so the brain doesn't process normally. Your arms stretching out and your butt getting pushed back in the seat are all the input you'll feel. (The Stage 1 upgrade helps the brain process normally.  )
BUCKEYE noted in a previous post that the sweet spot in the Vision power started at around 2500rpm's. I agree. The motor and the pipes just sound different and when I hit that range it feels like I am perched in an F-18, waiting for the catapult officer to touch the deck and launch me. One flick of the wrist at that point and it is a different animal. This is where I run the twisties and I can stay in 3rd gear from 25-60 mph. I almost never touch the brakes and use engine compression to set up for the next curve. (My heart is racing just thinking about it.) On my other bikes would be shifting constantly, even if just between two gears.
It sounds to me like Harley guys love to lug their engines. Is that just for the sound or is the motor happier in the lower band?
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Visionary
Posts: 1436
| Actually the 96 is as good and darn near as fast as the Vision when both are in stock form. I believe on the strip the Vision pulled the HD by 1 second. Staging both motors is when you'll see a difference and the 106 will come out on top. Victory like everyone else stuffs these motors up so bad they cannot perform. A SE HD will blow the doors off the STOCK vision, pretty close once staged. The Vision engine is noisy, really really noisy. JMO....
ps... whoever said the HD is set to self destruct at 30k without cams.... Thats a laugh. I've logged well over 200k on the last two HD's, never had an engine problem and none engine/cam related. We'll see if the Freedom holds up as well |
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Cruiser
Posts: 103
| HD riders still think the world is flat. They are so stuck in their old retro BS that they can't see the forest through the trees. A Vision is a superior motorcycle to Harley's Ultra plan and simple. It much more comfortable(touring cycle should be comfortable), its faster(1 second in a quarter mile is huge) top end its a joke. Harley doesn't handle as well, there is no comparision between the two. I know these things because I have ridden HD, Honda, BMW,and now a Vision. Harley is the conformist bike. Its small, shakey, and way over priced. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1324
So Cal | The Vision motor is like putting the Vrod heads on the 96" HD motor. Without the radiator. Its the motor HD should have built before the Vrod. Seeing a radiator on a HD was one of the hardest things for people to accept.
HD has improved the cam chain tensioners but its still a pushrod motor with two valve heads.
Victory heads have four valves per cylinder which require less lift to produce the same airflow.
That translates to less stress on the valvetrain.
Four valve heads like to run lean which is why most auto manufacturers are going that direction, better emissions.
I think the weakest link in the HD motor is the forked rod arrangement. Victory has two full rods side by side. Thats why the cylinders are offset just a little in relation to each other.
Similar modifications to both motors, I feel, would bring the Victory motor out on top. Just because of the better breathing capabilities of the heads.
As far as the dyno numbers are concerned? I have always felt that real world seat of the pants feel is a better judge of performance.
To confirm my opinion, just get a copy of the May '08 Thunderpress and read Kip Woodrings article on the subject in motorhead memo.
He explains it better than I do. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 619
Southeast Iowa | Teach is right about Harley motors lasting much longer than 30,000 miles. My buddy HD (short for Heavy Duty) his motor lasted 52,000 miles before it self destructed. I'm not for sure how long the average Freedom motor will run, but I know it will outlast Harley's best effort. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 257
Under the Rule of Jedi - Masshole | Big Vic - 2008-05-07 10:35 AM
Teach is right about Harley motors lasting much longer than 30,000 miles. My buddy HD (short for Heavy Duty) his motor lasted 52,000 miles before it self destructed. I'm not for sure how long the average Freedom motor will run, but I know it will outlast Harley's best effort.Well if any of the old ones are an indication, my 99 V92C has over 86,000 and doesn't use a drop of oil. Never missed a beat, and when I did have to tear it down to upgrade the trans, it still looked brand new inside. Reused the old rings, just installed new gaskets.
To bad this bike doesn't see to much action anymore, the first 3 years I had it, I put 20K per year on it.
Also Bigtwin92 has a 01 with over 25,000 on it and still has the original plugs!
Edited by Member No. 1 2008-05-07 10:55 AM
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Cruiser
Posts: 226
on the edge of Los Angeles | I agree with cjnoho,
"As far as the dyno numbers are concerned? I have always felt that real world seat of the pants feel is a better judge of performance"
I build racing engines and operate an Engine Dyno Big HP #s don't always equate to best on track / street performance. It has a lot to do with how the overall combination uses the available TQ and HP. When the #s are close it comes right down to whos bike got there first given the same rider and environment.
If we can cruise down the highway in 6th gear ridding two up and never need to gear down thats what I would call the optimal configuration. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 235
Evergreen, CO | The only major mod I made to my TC88 Heritage Softail was to install a gear drive cam to get rid of the one weak point on the TC88.....the chain drive cams with the POS plastic cam chain tensioner. That bike NEVER left me alongside the road, and I put 54K miles on it. No oil leaks, no oil useage...NOTHING. This was a huge improvement over my other two Harleys - first was a hardtail '65 panhead chopper (leaked, shake, rattle, roll), and the second was a '93 Dyna Wideglide, which had the dreaded Evo oil leak at the base of the jugs....not really enough to make you add oil, just made a mess of the cases. I also fought electrical/charging problems on that bike for 3 years, culminating in a stator replacement which cured those ills and made the bike rock solid reliable. BTW, I put almost 80K on that bike.
You can't compare current Harley reliability with that of a few "generations" ago......much better now, but not good enough for me to continue with them. My "John Deere" Heritage will be for sale soon.
I'm hoping for the same or better reliability on my Vision. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 74
MN. | If you look at the numbers, I believe the 96 and Victory's '92 are very close. As for comparison to the Vision's 106, CycleWorld compares them, with the following numbers:
HD Road Glide hp 70.3 torque 87.4 1/4 mile 13.72@93.73 dry weight 765
Victory Vision hp 88.3 torque 105.2 1/4 mile 12.92@99.75 dry weight 827
Now I know numbers don't mean everything. But they also said that the HD was "a good runner" making 7 more hp then the Rocker with the same motor. They guess that the dual exhaust, plus the fact the bike was well broken in with 8000 miles made the difference.
Edited by BATMAN 2008-05-07 5:56 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 1436
| Batman, and others, I apologize if I popped anyone bubble. I like my new Vision, and it sure is smooth. I just really hate reading all the brand loyalty muck that isn't true posted like someone is doing a sales pitch. We all bought or are buying Visions because WE like them. We have no need to justify the purchase to anyone but ourselves. This said I think the seat of the pants assessment holds much merit as I don't think many of us bought our bikes for the strip. Having just come off my second Roadglide to buy the Vision, both bikes bone stock are very close performance wise. The Vision fees really stuffed up so I will likely stage it which I believe will end the comparrison. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 235
Evergreen, CO | Teach -
Break it in nicely for the first 1000 miles. The mileage will suck during that period, just about like ANY new vehicle (2 wheels or 4), and will feel "stuffed up" as you call it. I only have 1500+ miles on mine so far, and already the mileage has increased 5mpg, it feels like its loosening up some, and I am hoping for more improvement until it is completely loosened up and broken in.
I'm a Harley fan of 23 years, and although my first one (panhead) was a handful, each succeeding Harley was smoother and more reliable. I enjoyed my Harleys, but I LOVE this Vision! I hope you feel the same way about yours as you get to spend more time with it. RIDE SAFE, RIDE OFTEN, ENJOY LIFE!!! |
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Cruiser
Posts: 136
CALGARY ALBERTA | There are many differences as noted in the Vision verses the HD. I have rode and loved my HD's for over 28 years consecutive as well the dozen or so years fixing and riding my friends HD's when I rode other bikes. The Vision for me is bar none, the best Touring machine I've ever driven. I still love the HD, I just don't need to own one right now.
I believe where Victory is bound to make the biggest difference is in the marketing of the accessories and pricing. I just changed my Vision oil for less than the HD would have cost me. 6 quarts of oil, funnel, oil filter and O rings all included. I STAND IN AWE. I bought the stage 1 mufflers which came with the tuning program for 1/2 of what the final price would have been with the HD comparable parts and program. Once again, I STAND IN AWE.
If I feel good at the end of the day, Victory has done their work.
AND I FEEL GREAT WITH MY VISION PURCHASE.
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Visionary
Posts: 1324
So Cal | My '02 e-glide had 64k on it when I went to the 95" kit. It looked brand new inside. Only problem was a stator problem around 50k, covered under extended warr. The tensioner problem was always in the back of my mind. Went to gear drive when I installed the big bore kit for piece of mind. It was agreat bike, I had no intention of buying another bike. Would have been happy to ride it till it wore out and then rebuild it again. When I saw pictures of the Vision I thought, nice concept but theyll never build it. Then I heard they were taking deposits and I thought, gonna be expensive. Found the Vision website and saw MSRP and the rest was history. Bought one without even test riding. (still test riding) |
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Cruiser
Posts: 226
on the edge of Los Angeles | On the day I purchased my Vision I took a final test ride on a Road Glide HD that had a cam and exhaust upgrade. Not sure on what level it was but I am sure what would be considered a Level 1 upgrade. Anyway imediatly after this test ride I did a final ride on a Vision and the Vision definetly had a better roll on power mainly evident by its higher Torque #s.
The other item of interset was that the idle vibration on the HD made me thin that I had a brake pulsation issue as it would cause the front end to pulsate as I rolled to a stop. I know that bringing the idle up a touch would cure this but I dont ride like that.
The Freedom 106 is a great starting point. I am confident that one of us will eventually do some basic port work on the cylinder heads and with out any ther modifications this too will create a more refined power level. I may be one of those individuals but I will wait until I get some miles on her and maybe when the weater turns unfavorable for riding.
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Visionary
Posts: 1324
So Cal | Im not one for fixing something that aint broke. But if there is a reason to disassemble why not upgrade? I can see cam changes on the victory motor being a lot easier than the HD. Aftermarket suppliers and EPA is the big issue. Since the Vision appears to be a runaway success, that may change. Bottom line concerning aftermatket parts is profit. Manufacturers develope parts based on profitability. With victory production increasing, it may be worth looking into for some. |
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Harley Motor vs. Victory Freedom 106