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Performance upgrade
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ljurgens
Posted 2014-01-23 7:49 AM (#150706 - in reply to #150705)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Tourer

Posts: 341
West Salem, WI United States

rdbudd - 2014-01-22 6:52 PM Now that your friend has seen first hand how well a Victory can run, and since he went from a Harley to a Goldwing to get more performance, he might be persuaded to take a Cross Country Tour for a test ride if he likes the idea of American Made and "traditional" style. You might offer to swap rides and then make a ride over to the Victory store. If he doesn't care about "traditional" style, and likes the amenities of the Goldwing, and would like to have them with the V-Twin character, he should try a Vision. Ronnie

Ronnie, you can't just "try" a Vision, you know better than that. Whats the saying, "ride one and you'll own one".

 

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rdbudd
Posted 2014-01-23 12:13 PM (#150711 - in reply to #150706)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Visionary

Posts: 1611
Jasper, MO
ljurgens - 2014-01-23 7:49 AM

rdbudd - 2014-01-22 6:52 PM Now that your friend has seen first hand how well a Victory can run, and since he went from a Harley to a Goldwing to get more performance, he might be persuaded to take a Cross Country Tour for a test ride if he likes the idea of American Made and "traditional" style. You might offer to swap rides and then make a ride over to the Victory store. If he doesn't care about "traditional" style, and likes the amenities of the Goldwing, and would like to have them with the V-Twin character, he should try a Vision. Ronnie

Ronnie, you can't just "try" a Vision, you know better than that. Whats the saying, "ride one and you'll own one".

?




Heh Heh Heh!

Ronnie
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donetracey
Posted 2014-01-24 1:56 AM (#150720 - in reply to #150169)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Visionary

Posts: 2118
Pitt Meadows, BC Canada
Some quotes from my framed copy of "Motorcycle Wisdom Of The Roads"

: Never try to race an old Geezer - he may have one more gear than you

: Grey Haired riders don't get that way from pure luck

: If the bike ain't braking properly - you don't start by rebuilding the engine

oh yeah ...

: Never argue with a woman holding a torque wrench

..... just 'buzzin' before bedtime .... sssknn..orrrrr
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#57
Posted 2014-01-30 8:14 AM (#150866 - in reply to #150720)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Tourer

Posts: 415
Not many Goldwings in my area, just LOTS of Harleys and they like to talk smack until we are out riding.
Or maybe they are still talking, just so far behind I can't hear them any more?




(125HP 121TQ Dyno.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments 125HP 121TQ Dyno.jpg (71KB - 2 downloads)
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wingit3611
Posted 2014-01-30 11:53 AM (#150873 - in reply to #150395)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Cruiser

Posts: 244

Tim: What is this "variable intake"?  "but wound up with the variable intake, PCV install and a solid dyno tune."

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rdbudd
Posted 2014-01-30 12:24 PM (#150878 - in reply to #150866)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Visionary

Posts: 1611
Jasper, MO
#57 - 2014-01-30 8:14 AM

Not many Goldwings in my area, just LOTS of Harleys and they like to talk smack until we are out riding.
Or maybe they are still talking, just so far behind I can't hear them any more?


Are those the VM1 cams, or the new "touring" cams?

Ronnie
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Street Eagle
Posted 2014-01-30 12:30 PM (#150879 - in reply to #150169)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Iron Butt

Posts: 691
Manchester, CT
Hey wingit

Its a stack that sits on top of the motor intake and the upper air filter. You have to sleeves install inside the barrels of the stack, 41mm and 44. I had the 41mm installed. I also installed Lloydz plate/spacer which gets u another 6 - 8hp. I don't have the performance heads but with the 1st gen cams the biked dyno'd at 122 rwhp, 120 ft/lb
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#57
Posted 2014-01-30 6:56 PM (#150894 - in reply to #150169)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Tourer

Posts: 415
I replaced the VM1's with the new Touring Cams. Bike has stock pistons.
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wingit3611
Posted 2014-01-31 11:51 AM (#150922 - in reply to #150879)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Cruiser

Posts: 244

Street Eagle: Thanks I have been a believer in them since had them. To ram tune the truck I think it was Long for low RPM & short for high RPM

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kin52
Posted 2014-02-03 10:19 AM (#150992 - in reply to #150894)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Cruiser

Posts: 79
Louisville, KY
I just ordered the VM1 cams and the adjustable timing gear . Now I'm wondering if I should have ordered the Touring cams instead, Hmmmm.
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rdbudd
Posted 2014-02-03 2:53 PM (#150998 - in reply to #150992)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Visionary

Posts: 1611
Jasper, MO
kin52 - 2014-02-03 10:19 AM

I just ordered the VM1 cams and the adjustable timing gear . Now I'm wondering if I should have ordered the Touring cams instead, Hmmmm.


I may be mistaken on this point, but I think the VM1 cams are a simple drop in replacement cam, while the "touring performance" cams require some machine work and different springs to install.

You should raise your rev-limiter to 6400 or 6500 with either type of cam to get all the performance they have to offer.

Ronnie
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kin52
Posted 2014-02-03 9:31 PM (#151008 - in reply to #150998)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Cruiser

Posts: 79
Louisville, KY
Yeah they said the cam carrier and maybe rocker arms will need clearance to work with the touring cams.
I'm a tool and die maker and I work as a gunsmith on the side in Louisville Ky so I have access to a mill. I;m thinking I might just go with the touring cams. Its a 6 to 8 horsepower gain over the VM1 cams .
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rdbudd
Posted 2014-02-03 9:53 PM (#151009 - in reply to #151008)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Visionary

Posts: 1611
Jasper, MO
kin52 - 2014-02-03 9:31 PM

Yeah they said the cam carrier and maybe rocker arms will need clearance to work with the touring cams.
I'm a tool and die maker and I work as a gunsmith on the side in Louisville Ky so I have access to a mill. I;m thinking I might just go with the touring cams. Its a 6 to 8 horsepower gain over the VM1 cams .


You're all set then.

Still, I believe you'll find that, in practice, the extended rev-limit is far more important than the extra 6 to 8 horsepower. Of course the extra 6 to 8 HP, along with the extended rev-limit, would be ideal.

The stock cams quit by about 4000 to 4500 RPM, and the factory set the rev-limit at 5500, which was okay because the stock cams aren't pulling anymore at that speed anyway. However, with Lloydz cams, the motor really comes into it's own at 3500 to 4000 RPM and keeps on pulling well past 6000 RPM. Your peak numbers won't go up much, if any, with the rev-extend, but your powerband will be that much wider, and you'll be keeping your motor in the sweet spot when flogging through the gears. It makes a real difference in the performance.

Ronnie
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#57
Posted 2014-02-04 11:48 AM (#151023 - in reply to #150169)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Tourer

Posts: 415
My biggest reason for the rev extender was the cams rev so fast I was constantly hitting the rev limiter in first and second.
Now only hit on real cool mornings when playing around.

Agree with everything Ronnie says.
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kin52
Posted 2014-02-04 2:52 PM (#151028 - in reply to #151023)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Cruiser

Posts: 79
Louisville, KY
I'm doing the reflashed ecu as well just not until the cams and Adjustable timing gear are in and tested.
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Oldman47
Posted 2014-02-04 2:54 PM (#151029 - in reply to #151008)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Tourer

Posts: 573
Central Illinois

kin52 - 2014-02-03 9:31 PM Yeah they said the cam carrier and maybe rocker arms will need clearance to work with the touring cams. I'm a tool and die maker and I work as a gunsmith on the side in Louisville Ky so I have access to a mill. I;m thinking I might just go with the touring cams. Its a 6 to 8 horsepower gain over the VM1 cams .

It is not a question of getting the machining done. The touring cams require more bike disassembly than the VM1 cams. You need to judge your effort against performance improvement and recognize that so called touring cams are all about high end performance, not typical touring conditions.

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rdbudd
Posted 2014-02-04 5:29 PM (#151031 - in reply to #151028)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Visionary

Posts: 1611
Jasper, MO
kin52 - 2014-02-04 2:52 PM

I'm doing the reflashed ecu as well just not until the cams and Adjustable timing gear are in and tested.


If you are SURE you are going to do the cams, it would not hurt anything at all to get your ECU reflashed by Lloydz during the off season. It takes a couple of weeks to get it back. You won't see much difference in performance until you get the cams though, and the extended rev-limit gains you nothing with the stock cams, because they are done by 4500 RPM. Doing the reflash now just means you'll be able to tune the setup, the first time, after getting the cams and other stuff installed. You'll be ready to rock-n-roll.

I waited until later to do the rev-extend. I wished afterwards that I hadn't.

Ronnie
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Allen_B
Posted 2014-02-04 8:10 PM (#151032 - in reply to #150169)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Cruiser

Posts: 106
Clinton, CT
Went with the touring cams, installed by Kyle (KMC Powersports) in Westerly RI. Yes, they are more involved, more expensive and yes the added gains are not really in the "heart" of the cruising RPM's.

To offer a humble opinion, if you don't ride like a juvenile delinquent (which I do on a regular basis) I would offer the VM1 cams are overall a better value. I went with the touring cams (and associated complimenting parts) for my riding style and can say that the improvements were well worth it- but I tend to wring the bike out a bit! Add in the D&D mufflers and the 1/4 turn throttle ring and the bike is a completely different experience.

As for true touring, the wife and I (together weighing around 450lbs plus gear) loaded up and took a 3 day trip up to Maine, through New Hampshire and Vermont and back down into Connecticut last fall and the bike was flawless. The added power and torque was evident and HUGELY useful, especially on a few occasions when needed to execute a few tight highway passes.

Pricy, but a lot of value-add...


/r

Allen
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BradXC
Posted 2014-02-05 9:45 AM (#151043 - in reply to #150169)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Puddle Jumper

Posts: 8
Not having the rev limit extended after cams is like a women that lets you get to third base real fast, and then cuts you off when you are headed for home. Blue balls HAHAHA.
rdbudd - I'm working on him. I think he would really like the Vision, I just need to get his old butt on one.
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byufan
Posted 2014-08-04 12:00 PM (#163949 - in reply to #150169)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Puddle Jumper

Posts: 39
This thread is great. I really appreciate all the info for the different arrangements.

I wish I had the money for cams now, and it's good to know that I don't have to decide on a fuel controller before starting with the timing system and top filter.
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Rowebote
Posted 2014-10-06 12:29 PM (#167211 - in reply to #151031)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Cruiser

Posts: 62
Eagan, MN United States
rdbudd - 2014-02-04 5:29 PM

If you are SURE you are going to do the cams, it would not hurt anything at all to get your ECU reflashed by Lloydz during the off season. It takes a couple of weeks to get it back. You won't see much difference in performance until you get the cams though, and the extended rev-limit gains you nothing with the stock cams, because they are done by 4500 RPM. Doing the reflash now just means you'll be able to tune the setup, the first time, after getting the cams and other stuff installed. You'll be ready to rock-n-roll.

I waited until later to do the rev-extend. I wished afterwards that I hadn't.

Ronnie


First, thanks for such a great thread with valuable information.

Second, now my question. Will the ECU program provide any additional benefits over what the PC5 can do? I ask because winter is coming and it would be a good time to send my ECU to Lloydz prior to spring. I'm currently stock but plan on doing everything except a big bore and exhaust. Coming from a 107" Jackpot the only option available was a reprogrammed ECU since the PC3 doesn't have the capability of extending the rev limit. So being new to the Vision world I haven't looked into as much performance mods as I had with the Jackpot. Below are what I plan on doing either by next spring or in the summer. Until I get the cams installed I am going to try and run with just the O2 sensors unplugged and get it dyno'd at the same time as the cam install (going to see Rylan at some point!)

PC5
ECU?
Adjustable Intake
Vision Intake Filter (top filter) - on order
Adjustable timing system - going to order and install this winter
VM1-DR Cams
1/4 turn throttle - on order
IAV (if necessary)
Stock Exhaust
Anything I'm forgetting?

Thanks!
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nailer
Posted 2014-10-06 3:34 PM (#167212 - in reply to #150169)
Subject: RE: Performance upgrade


Tourer

Posts: 366
Albuquerque, NM
From what I've read, a Llyod's reprogrammed ECU rev limit is 6500 rpm while the PCV rev limit is 6000 rpm. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
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rdbudd
Posted 2014-10-06 4:50 PM (#167216 - in reply to #167211)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Visionary

Posts: 1611
Jasper, MO
Rowebote - 2014-10-06 12:29 PM

rdbudd - 2014-02-04 5:29 PM

If you are SURE you are going to do the cams, it would not hurt anything at all to get your ECU reflashed by Lloydz during the off season. It takes a couple of weeks to get it back. You won't see much difference in performance until you get the cams though, and the extended rev-limit gains you nothing with the stock cams, because they are done by 4500 RPM. Doing the reflash now just means you'll be able to tune the setup, the first time, after getting the cams and other stuff installed. You'll be ready to rock-n-roll.

I waited until later to do the rev-extend. I wished afterwards that I hadn't.

Ronnie


First, thanks for such a great thread with valuable information.

Second, now my question. Will the ECU program provide any additional benefits over what the PC5 can do? I ask because winter is coming and it would be a good time to send my ECU to Lloydz prior to spring. I'm currently stock but plan on doing everything except a big bore and exhaust. Coming from a 107" Jackpot the only option available was a reprogrammed ECU since the PC3 doesn't have the capability of extending the rev limit. So being new to the Vision world I haven't looked into as much performance mods as I had with the Jackpot. Below are what I plan on doing either by next spring or in the summer. Until I get the cams installed I am going to try and run with just the O2 sensors unplugged and get it dyno'd at the same time as the cam install (going to see Rylan at some point!)

PC5
ECU?
Adjustable Intake
Vision Intake Filter (top filter) - on order
Adjustable timing system - going to order and install this winter
VM1-DR Cams
1/4 turn throttle - on order
IAV (if necessary)
Stock Exhaust
Anything I'm forgetting?

Thanks!


It's probably a toss-up between the benefits of the PC5 VS the Lloydz ECU reprogram. If you stay with the stock exhaust, or use one that mimics the torque curve of the stock exhaust, you probably don't need a PC5 and a VFCIII would be fine. If you go messing around with the exhaust, you often end up with a messed up torque curve and then the PC5 is needed to compensate for the peaks and valleys that the exhaust caused. Your call.

There is a functional difference between the PC5 and Lloydz ECU as far as the way the rev limits are increased.

The PC5 can alter timing (above 2500 RPM) as well as fuel delivery. The VFCIII only adds fuel. Both are a slave to what the ECU is telling them, and the ECU does ALL the temperature, altitude, and barometric pressure compensating, regardless of which controller you use (contrary to internet scuttlebutt). The ECU is in charge. The PC5 DOES NOT compensate for altitude, temperature, etc. Neither does the VFCIII. The controllers piggyback the ECU.

Lloydz ECU reprogram alters the base timing and fuel delivery curves according to a dyno developed program. He increases timing about 2 degrees, which aids low end power. If you add the adjustable timing wheel, you probably won't want to advance it the full 4 degrees. Some people have found that they can't use any more advance from the wheel without pinging, or they are limited to 2 degrees (2+2=4 (over 2500 RPM)). He increases the rev limit to 6400 RPM in all 6 gears. This lets you take full advantage of the cams, and it removes the top speed limiter, and you can pull as much speed as you have power for. I've seen 140 on a good day.

The PC5 has the ability to alter timing above 2500 RPM and the bike can still benefit from the timing wheel. It can compensate for aftermarket exhausts by virtue of the ability to both add and subtract fuel. The PC5 increases the rev limit by adding RPM over the limits in the stock ECU. The stock ECU limits RPM to 5250 in 1st, 5500 in 2nd through 5th, and 4550 in 6th gear. The regular option that comes with the PC5 is for a 500 RPM increase over stock. Thus, you get 5750 in 1st gear (not enough to take full advantage of the cams) 6000 (5950) in 2nd through 5th gear (still not enough if you want to shift as you go past 6000, which you want to if you want to get the most from the cams), and 5050 RPM in 6th gear, which gets you a new 133 MPH limit before the speed limiter kicks in. You can call Dynojet and get the code to increase the limits another 500 RPM, and then you're limited to 6250 in 1st, 6500 in 2nd through 5th, and 5550 in 6th. That'll make full use of the cams.

BEFORE you spend ANY money on any parts, call Rylan and discuss your long term plans. You may not need everything you listed. If you go for the PC5 instead of the VFC, have Rylan add 1000 RPM to the rev limiter. You CAN use the PC5 with Lloydz ECU, in which case you would set the PC5 back to base for rev limits and timing. With the stock exhaust, you probably won't "need" the PC5 instead of the VFCIII. Compare the cost of the VFCIII and the Lloydz ECU vs the PC5 and a dyno tune and decide.

I can pretty much guarantee you that with your stock exhaust, adding cams, top filter, fuel controller (I use a VFCIII), and a rev extension to 6400 or 6500 RPM (I have Lloydz ECU--6400 in all 6) will put you in front of GL1800 Goldwings in drag racing, passing power, and top speed. It won't be a huge advantage, but they will be buying the beer if one was bet on the outcome.

Rylan installed my cams and top filter and tuned the bike using ( KevinX's?) VFCIII road test method. No dyno available at the time. I like it. Could a dyno session improve it? Maybe I'll find out someday.

If I were to add anything to my bike, (Cams, VFCIII, top filter Lloydz ECU, stock exhaust) it will be Lloydz adjustable intake. I already have enough timing increase, since I can induce slight pinging in hot weather under heavy loads in a high gear. A downshift stops it.

Ronnie



Edited by rdbudd 2014-10-06 5:10 PM
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Rowebote
Posted 2014-10-06 7:36 PM (#167217 - in reply to #167216)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Cruiser

Posts: 62
Eagan, MN United States
rdbudd - 2014-10-06 4:50 PM

..........

BEFORE you spend ANY money on any parts, call Rylan and discuss your long term plans. You may not need everything you listed. If you go for the PC5 instead of the VFC, have Rylan add 1000 RPM to the rev limiter. You CAN use the PC5 with Lloydz ECU, in which case you would set the PC5 back to base for rev limits and timing. With the stock exhaust, you probably won't "need" the PC5 instead of the VFCIII. Compare the cost of the VFCIII and the Lloydz ECU vs the PC5 and a dyno tune and decide.

.........

Ronnie



That's some good advice! I am planning on giving Rylan a call before I get to carried away with any purchases. I am thinking of the pc5 over the vfc partially due to being able to individually tune each cylinder and if I change my mind later about a big bore. When I did the Jackpot I originally went with a vfc but needed to change it when I did the big bore. So with the added tunability combined with future potential I like the pc5 option. But I will defer to Rylan's advice. Once again thanks for a great explanation!

Chris
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adirondacks
Posted 2014-10-06 9:31 PM (#167220 - in reply to #150169)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Tourer

Posts: 323
Troy, NY
The ECU change does more than change the rev limiter. The main purpose is to change the timing of the gearing. I have the ECU installed with CAMS...etc. I can stay in a gear longer than a non-ECU. So it get me to the 3k revolution quicker to harness the power at the RPM levels. If I did it all over again, I would still get the ECU changed. Best of luck to you!!
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