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rdbudd
Posted 2014-10-08 7:49 PM (#167253 - in reply to #167217)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Visionary

Posts: 1606
Jasper, MO
Rowebote - 2014-10-06 7:36 PM

rdbudd - 2014-10-06 4:50 PM

..........

BEFORE you spend ANY money on any parts, call Rylan and discuss your long term plans. You may not need everything you listed. If you go for the PC5 instead of the VFC, have Rylan add 1000 RPM to the rev limiter. You CAN use the PC5 with Lloydz ECU, in which case you would set the PC5 back to base for rev limits and timing. With the stock exhaust, you probably won't "need" the PC5 instead of the VFCIII. Compare the cost of the VFCIII and the Lloydz ECU vs the PC5 and a dyno tune and decide.

.........

Ronnie



That's some good advice! I am planning on giving Rylan a call before I get to carried away with any purchases. I am thinking of the pc5 over the vfc partially due to being able to individually tune each cylinder and if I change my mind later about a big bore. When I did the Jackpot I originally went with a vfc but needed to change it when I did the big bore. So with the added tunability combined with future potential I like the pc5 option. But I will defer to Rylan's advice. Once again thanks for a great explanation!

Chris


Given your short term and possible big bore goals, the PC5 is probably the way to go.

If you are performance oriented and not afraid to accept a challenge when somebody wants a drag race or just flog 'em through the gears, with the VM1 cams, you will want to shift just as the tach reaches and passes through 6000 RPM. You need the ability to hold the throttle and fan the clutch as you shift at 6000. A 6000 RPM rev limit is too limiting--you will be smacking into the limiter every time just before you want to shift, especially on the 1st to 2nd shift. You need a little more room. You need a 6400 to 6500 RPM limiter. Get the code from Dynojet to add 1000 RPM to the PC5. The increased rev limit won't gain you any more power, but it will let you stay in each gear longer, which is important, especially when running against Goldwings. It's all about the gearing.

Given your goals, run this list past Rylan.

Keep the stock ECU
Stock exhaust
Scratch off the IAC

PC5 with 1000 RPM rev limit extension
Lloydz VM1 or VM1-HP cams
Lloydz Adjustable timing wheel
Lloydz Adjustable intake
Lloydz top filter

This will give you a quiet and powerful sleeper that the Goldwing and Harley crowds will never suspect. Lot's of fun showing them your taillights with your "stock and quiet" Vision. When they ask, just say you got a good tune.


Ronnie
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wingit3611
Posted 2014-10-09 10:08 AM (#167264 - in reply to #150169)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Cruiser

Posts: 244
Rdbudd:
Why do you not list the performace front filter also ?
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Rowebote
Posted 2014-10-09 11:21 AM (#167265 - in reply to #167264)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Cruiser

Posts: 62
Eagan, MN United States
wingit3611 - 2014-10-09 10:08 AM

Rdbudd:
Why do you not list the performace front filter also ?


It's not needed. It doesn't increase airflow, especially on the build I'm thinking of with stock bore. I don't think it's necessary on a big bore either but rdubb will better answer that. Only advantage is that you have a reusable filter instead of a paper one.
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cw1115
Posted 2014-10-10 5:18 PM (#167275 - in reply to #150169)
Subject: RE: Performance upgrade


Visionary

Posts: 1290
Ruskin, Fl
So this is where I am at. I have L1S2 pipes with Atom Bomb mod. I added the Lloydz top filter. Next KevinX added the VFC-III and timing wheel set at +4.
Bike keeps getting better and better! So next I changed the cams and put in Lloydz HOH-VM1-DR cams. I used the VFC settings Lloydz recommended.
I only rode the bike on a couple of short rides. Very happy. I could not really get on it due to a week of rain. I did however notice right away that I was on the rev limiter in the blink of an eye. So, I sent the ECM out for the reflash. Lloyd said use the same settings because they only make minor changes to the fuel map.
After I got the ECM back I cannot get the bike dialed in. It stumbles off idle and surges bad in slow traffic between 2000 and 2500 RMPs. When you get on it it is scary fast. My timing wheel is still set at +4 and no ping after the reflash. I called KevinX and he gave me different settings till I can get a dyno tune. Ran worse. I have been just trying my own settings. I have managed to wildly vary my fuel economy and get it better, but not right.
I ordered the variable intake with 44 MM insertsa and will have tham Monday, than I will make an appointment with Kevin to get this thing dialed in. I can not wait.
One other thing I notivced it the way the onboard computer works. It is still horribly off, always showes 7-8 mpg higher than actual, but when I coast now it only goes up to about 70 on the instant economy. It used to go to 99 as soon as you let off the throttle.

Anybody with a similar set-up have an idea what to set the VFM to? I should see Kevin in a week or so if I can't figure it out it's not a big deal.
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cw1115
Posted 2014-10-10 6:13 PM (#167278 - in reply to #150169)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Visionary

Posts: 1290
Ruskin, Fl
Sorry for the typos, sent from my phone. I just ordered the Ness front filter from Meancycles in Miami. $57. I figure the stock paper one has 31,000 miles on it so it may be time to change.
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cw1115
Posted 2014-10-11 1:11 AM (#167279 - in reply to #150169)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Visionary

Posts: 1290
Ruskin, Fl
Oh, and I forgot to mention. I've throw the same error code twice after the ECM reflashed. 205520 I think. It's a lean condition I believe. How is that possible with the O2 sensors disconnected?
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diamonbird
Posted 2014-10-11 8:53 AM (#167280 - in reply to #150169)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Cruiser

Posts: 251
Mechanicsville, VA United States
I would if I lived in Fla. go see Mr.X asap and let him fix what's wrong with my bike and if that's not possible I would get a PCV with the AT-300 and be done with this problem.
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cw1115
Posted 2014-10-11 8:56 AM (#167281 - in reply to #150169)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Visionary

Posts: 1290
Ruskin, Fl
Correct code was 520205
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rdbudd
Posted 2014-10-11 11:39 AM (#167282 - in reply to #167265)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Visionary

Posts: 1606
Jasper, MO
Rowebote - 2014-10-09 11:21 AM

wingit3611 - 2014-10-09 10:08 AM

Rdbudd:
Why do you not list the performace front filter also ?


It's not needed. It doesn't increase airflow, especially on the build I'm thinking of with stock bore. I don't think it's necessary on a big bore either but rdubb will better answer that. Only advantage is that you have a reusable filter instead of a paper one.


+1

Ronnie
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rdbudd
Posted 2014-10-11 12:06 PM (#167283 - in reply to #167275)
Subject: RE: Performance upgrade


Visionary

Posts: 1606
Jasper, MO
cw1115 - 2014-10-10 5:18 PM

So this is where I am at. I have L1S2 pipes with Atom Bomb mod. I added the Lloydz top filter. Next KevinX added the VFC-III and timing wheel set at +4.
Bike keeps getting better and better! So next I changed the cams and put in Lloydz HOH-VM1-DR cams. I used the VFC settings Lloydz recommended.
I only rode the bike on a couple of short rides. Very happy. I could not really get on it due to a week of rain. I did however notice right away that I was on the rev limiter in the blink of an eye. So, I sent the ECM out for the reflash. Lloyd said use the same settings because they only make minor changes to the fuel map.
After I got the ECM back I cannot get the bike dialed in. It stumbles off idle and surges bad in slow traffic between 2000 and 2500 RMPs. When you get on it it is scary fast. My timing wheel is still set at +4 and no ping after the reflash. I called KevinX and he gave me different settings till I can get a dyno tune. Ran worse. I have been just trying my own settings. I have managed to wildly vary my fuel economy and get it better, but not right.
I ordered the variable intake with 44 MM insertsa and will have tham Monday, than I will make an appointment with Kevin to get this thing dialed in. I can not wait.
One other thing I notivced it the way the onboard computer works. It is still horribly off, always showes 7-8 mpg higher than actual, but when I coast now it only goes up to about 70 on the instant economy. It used to go to 99 as soon as you let off the throttle.

Anybody with a similar set-up have an idea what to set the VFM to? I should see Kevin in a week or so if I can't figure it out it's not a big deal.


Kevin will get it right for you.

Given the fact that you screwed with the exhaust system, the VFCIII may not be able to compensate enough. Kevin will know after a dyno run or two. Kevin MAY have to end up installing a PC5 to deal with the exhaust system.

The trip computer MPG function will never be accurate, especially after adding any type of fuel controller. It will be optimistic. This is because the trip computer gets its information ahead of what the fuel controller is doing. It does not show the added fuel being used under heavy throttle, or recognize that your throttle opening is at times less than what was required when stock. In actuality, your real fuel economy under cruise conditions will be close to what it was stock. You cannot use the trip computer's fuel economy function as an indicator of proper tuning. You will just be chasing ghosts trying to do that. Kevin will get the AFRs right, and the fuel economy will come in line along with the performance.

Ronnie
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cw1115
Posted 2014-10-11 6:55 PM (#167286 - in reply to #150169)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Visionary

Posts: 1290
Ruskin, Fl
Thanks Ronnie. I didn't think the Ness filter would do much with the top filter installed. My thinking is not have to buy a filter again.
Any idea how I can throw a lean condition code with O2 sensors unplugged.
By the way there is a gen IV VFC. It is similar to the PFC with an auto tune function. It is available now but not on the website yet. I forget the price Erica quoted me. Four something.
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rdbudd
Posted 2014-10-12 12:33 AM (#167289 - in reply to #167286)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Visionary

Posts: 1606
Jasper, MO
cw1115 - 2014-10-11 6:55 PM

Thanks Ronnie. I didn't think the Ness filter would do much with the top filter installed. My thinking is not have to buy a filter again.
Any idea how I can throw a lean condition code with O2 sensors unplugged.
By the way there is a gen IV VFC. It is similar to the PFC with an auto tune function. It is available now but not on the website yet. I forget the price Erica quoted me. Four something.


The "performance filter" is re-usable and worth having for that reason. I've not seen any definitive numbers to prove that the reusable front filter actually flows more air through the front induction tract than the paper filter. The addition of the top filter definitely adds more air flow.

I suspect you just don't have the VFCIII set right for the cams, top filter, and pipe combination, because you describe a lean stumble between 2000 and 2500 RPM. At some point, you are going too lean and throwing the code. Lean means you need more fuel, or the transition setting isn't quite right yet. If so, Kevin should be able to set the VFCIII on his dyno. You've already said that it runs good higher in the range. Probably just needs fine tuning of the VFCIII. He also has a road test method that works well for setting the VFCIII. Did he mention it to you? It involves real time testing on the road and making adjustments on the fly. It does require a person to have a "feel" for what is happening, but it works.

Every bike is different. Different people's complete combinations are different. Suggested baseline settings are just a starting point. Using somebody else's settings may get you close, but the final tune will have to be done on your bike.

I'm aware of the new VFCIV, but have no experience with it. Kevin knows as much about it as anyone and has used one. His initial reviews were very positive.

Ronnie
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cw1115
Posted 2014-10-12 7:19 AM (#167291 - in reply to #150169)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Visionary

Posts: 1290
Ruskin, Fl
Thanks again Ronnie. I understand all that but what I can figure out is how does the ECM "know" or thinks it knows it is lean if the oxygen sensors are not hooked up? The a/f signal to the ECM should never change now.
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rdbudd
Posted 2014-10-12 9:27 AM (#167292 - in reply to #167291)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Visionary

Posts: 1606
Jasper, MO
cw1115 - 2014-10-12 7:19 AM

Thanks again Ronnie. I understand all that but what I can figure out is how does the ECM "know" or thinks it knows it is lean if the oxygen sensors are not hooked up? The a/f signal to the ECM should never change now.


You got me with that one because I'm not 100% sure. I think the ECU just goes into open loop but still makes adjustments, meaning the ECU is still reading all the other sensors and adjusting accordingly. It only uses the narrowband O2 sensors to make very minor adjustments anyway, even when in closed loop. The AFR does indeed change with the O2 sensors unhooked. I get your point though.

Kevin? Rylan? What do you guys say?

Ronnie

Edited by rdbudd 2014-10-12 9:30 AM
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cw1115
Posted 2014-10-12 9:58 AM (#167293 - in reply to #150169)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Visionary

Posts: 1290
Ruskin, Fl
My intake being delivered tomorrow. It's Tuesday's project. Maybe see Kevin Friday. I keep you updated. Thanks for all the input.
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kevinx
Posted 2014-10-12 12:15 PM (#167295 - in reply to #167293)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Visionary

Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators
cw1115 - 2014-10-12 10:58 AM

My intake being delivered tomorrow. It's Tuesday's project. Maybe see Kevin Friday. I keep you updated. Thanks for all the input.


This Friday I'm booked solid, and trying to figure out how to be in Daytone at 7pm
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cw1115
Posted 2014-10-13 6:44 AM (#167304 - in reply to #150169)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Visionary

Posts: 1290
Ruskin, Fl
No problem. I will call you first of course.
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cw1115
Posted 2014-10-13 6:44 AM (#167305 - in reply to #150169)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Visionary

Posts: 1290
Ruskin, Fl
No problem. I will call you first of course.
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cw1115
Posted 2014-10-15 3:08 PM (#167336 - in reply to #150169)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Visionary

Posts: 1290
Ruskin, Fl
So my little brain was in overdrive and I stated thinking that the dealer that made so many mistakes on my bike probably reconnected the front O2 sensor when they replaced the subframe. So my plan was to check that while I was installing the Lloydz variable intake. I had a very had time getting that thin in. Three calls to Lloyd and one to Kevin. I finally figured out why I couldn't get it in. I fulled the panel under the seat and discovered the rear O2 sencor was in fact connected. Have not checked the front yet.
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Rowebote
Posted 2014-10-15 3:19 PM (#167337 - in reply to #150169)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Cruiser

Posts: 62
Eagan, MN United States
After speaking with Rylan, this is what I'm going to go with. There was a significant difference between 2500-4000 rpms to justify a new exhaust. From the dyno charts he sent there was 10 ft/lbs of difference at 3k. The DnD's shouldn't be as loud as some but give it some more character. I'm not against sound but I don't want loud for loud's sake and these are what he suggested. He said the Atom Bombs would do the same but are louder. The exhaust is a decent increase for my total cost so may delay the project a little bit. We are probably only going to bump the PC5 500 rpms. I may try to get him to bump it the additional 500 like you suggested but there are only a few times a year or situations it would come into play for me so I can live without it. He said if I wanted to do the HPT cams that we would start getting into the range where clutch work would become necessary (ie: more money). I think I will be real happy with this build and I a amazed at what kind of power gains can be had with just this work.

VM1 Cams
Power Commander 5
Adjustable Intake
Timing Wheel and gasket
Quarter turn Throttle
Top Filter
DnD exhaust
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Oldman47
Posted 2014-10-16 9:37 PM (#167353 - in reply to #150174)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Tourer

Posts: 573
Central Illinois

MaddMAx2u - 2014-01-01 6:30 PM I am not a mechanic. But I'm not sure there's a need for a top filter if you are not going to change exhaust. Think of a funnel. If I make the top bigger (adding a top air filter) but keep the bottom the same (exhaust) I really can't get more air thru. So if you keep the stock exhaust, do ya gain anything? Maybe if you put a few holes in the baffles, but otherwise.......?

So this is a before and after, with my timing wheel set at +3 for both runs. Rylan Voss installed a Loydz top filter and the PC5 and then did his magic. He saw no reason to change my timing wheel setting. I still have a bone stock exhaust on my Vision. Now would you care to answer your own question. Can you get anything out of an intake without changing the exhaust?

To me the answer is obvious. I don't need a loud exhaust to get performance.



Edited by Oldman47 2014-10-16 9:43 PM
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Rowebote
Posted 2014-10-17 8:15 AM (#167356 - in reply to #167353)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Cruiser

Posts: 62
Eagan, MN United States
That is a nice chart. It's amazing what performance you can get out of a Vision with minimal changes and cost. 7 ft/lb peak difference but at times you can see a +10 gain and most importantly a consistent gain in the driving range. All this for under a grand.

PC5 - 369
timing wheel - 142
Top Filter - 95
Dyno+labor 350?
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rdbudd
Posted 2014-10-17 10:24 AM (#167357 - in reply to #167353)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Visionary

Posts: 1606
Jasper, MO
Oldman47 - 2014-10-16 9:37 PM

MaddMAx2u - 2014-01-01 6:30 PM I am not a mechanic. But I'm not sure there's a need for a top filter if you are not going to change exhaust. Think of a funnel. If I make the top bigger (adding a top air filter) but keep the bottom the same (exhaust) I really can't get more air thru. So if you keep the stock exhaust, do ya gain anything? Maybe if you put a few holes in the baffles, but otherwise.......?

So this is a before and after, with my timing wheel set at +3 for both runs. Rylan Voss installed a Loydz top filter and the PC5 and then did his magic. He saw no reason to change my timing wheel setting. I still have a bone stock exhaust on my Vision. Now would you care to answer your own question. Can you get anything out of an intake without changing the exhaust?

To me the answer is obvious. I don't need a loud exhaust to get performance.



That's a nice chart for a stock cam Vision. 5th gear pulls hard from 60 MPH to 100 MPH--great passing power. VM1 cams added to that combination would make the pull you now feel at 90 to 100 MPH last past 125 MPH. The stock cams are giving up at 100 MPH in 5th. The VM1s with that combination will mirror what you now feel, except they will continue to pull after you reach 100 (4500 RPM). On my bike, they actually pick up even more torque at 4500 RPM and start pulling even harder, instead of dropping off at 4500 RPM like the stock cams do.

I've been saying it for years. The stock exhaust isn't restrictive--just quiet. To use the funnel analogy, the top of the funnel (the intake) is the restricted part on a Vision. The bottom of the funnel is more than wide enough to handle the extra flow. Lloyd has shown that the stock exhaust can handle 135 HP from a built 116. 106s certainly aren't held back by it.

BTW, I'm running the stock exhaust too. Fast and quiet.

Ronnie
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rdbudd
Posted 2014-10-17 10:51 AM (#167358 - in reply to #167337)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Visionary

Posts: 1606
Jasper, MO
Rowebote - 2014-10-15 3:19 PM

After speaking with Rylan, this is what I'm going to go with. There was a significant difference between 2500-4000 rpms to justify a new exhaust. From the dyno charts he sent there was 10 ft/lbs of difference at 3k. The DnD's shouldn't be as loud as some but give it some more character. I'm not against sound but I don't want loud for loud's sake and these are what he suggested. He said the Atom Bombs would do the same but are louder. The exhaust is a decent increase for my total cost so may delay the project a little bit. We are probably only going to bump the PC5 500 rpms. I may try to get him to bump it the additional 500 like you suggested but there are only a few times a year or situations it would come into play for me so I can live without it. He said if I wanted to do the HPT cams that we would start getting into the range where clutch work would become necessary (ie: more money). I think I will be real happy with this build and I a amazed at what kind of power gains can be had with just this work.

VM1 Cams
Power Commander 5
Adjustable Intake
Timing Wheel and gasket
Quarter turn Throttle
Top Filter
DnD exhaust


Your new chart, after the mods you list, will look very much like the one Oldman47 put up with the exception that the torque (and horsepower) will not begin to drop after 4500 RPM. It will continue on to around a peak at 5700-5800 RPM before beginning to drop. You'll be looking at around 115 to 120 RWHP. Your bike will pull really hard from 60 MPH to 120 MPH in 5th gear. That is not to say it won't pull below that, or above that--it will. It will just pull extra hard between 60 and 120.

You can always change the exhaust at a later date if you want to. You will get close to the same overall results with the stock exhaust and you don't have to let the price of the exhaust delay your project.

The width of the torque band is as important, if not more so, than a peak number. Wide and flat is better than high and narrow, especially on a street bike. If you can achieve both wide and flat with high numbers, you've reached nirvana. (That's what the VM1 cams do).

I doesn't cost any more for Rylan to program your PCV to add 1000 RPM instead of 500 while he is at it. You just need the code from Dynojet ahead of time.

You're going to think you got a new bike after Rylan gets done.

Ronnie

Edited by rdbudd 2014-10-17 10:55 AM
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Rowebote
Posted 2015-03-04 4:28 PM (#170072 - in reply to #150169)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Cruiser

Posts: 62
Eagan, MN United States
Well the Vision is at Rylan's getting cammed. I decided to go with Atom Bombs since exhaust does seem to add a decent amount of tq on the lower end. I know I'll be giving up a the quiet of stock but I'll be fine with that. Once the final build is done and I have a dyno sheet I will be sure to post them.
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