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Gas mileage with a Lloydz Top Air Filter
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Derks
Posted 2017-04-24 12:03 PM (#191776)
Subject: Gas mileage with a Lloydz Top Air Filter


Puddle Jumper

Posts: 34
Bloomfield, NJ United States
Last year I installed, just prior to winter, a Power Commander V with Auto Tune and a Lloydz Top Air Filter. I've been riding with this configuration for the past month and I notice that my average MPG has dropped from 50 to about 34.
Did anyone else experience this large change?
What did you see?

PS I just took out the filter and reset my map to the last readings prior to installation of the air filter. I'll update this post with my new findings after I put some miles on my bike.
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rdbudd
Posted 2017-04-24 5:37 PM (#191777 - in reply to #191776)
Subject: RE: Gas mileage with a Lloydz Top Air Filter


Visionary

Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO
I get about the same fuel economy with Lloydz goodies as it did stock. That is, it averages in the low 40s. Power, however, is substantially increased over stock.

My vehicles have always gotten lower fuel economy in the colder months when running on the winter blends. It goes up when the refineries switch to summer blends. Many areas of the country mandate oxygenated fuels during certain months, and these often hurt fuel economy. Thank the EPA.

Ronnie



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johnnyvision
Posted 2017-04-24 6:07 PM (#191778 - in reply to #191776)
Subject: Re: Gas mileage with a Lloydz Top Air Filter


Visionary

Posts: 4278
If you think that auto tune works as a closed loop tuning system. You Are mistaken. Auto Tune needs rider to accept trims to adjust. After about six cycles the system is supposed to me removed

sounds like you have done your set up wrong
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Davet
Posted 2017-04-25 8:02 AM (#191781 - in reply to #191776)
Subject: Re: Gas mileage with a Lloydz Top Air Filter


Puddle Jumper

Posts: 33
Sacramento, CA United States
After 7 iterations with the same set-up as the OP I'm getting similar results. Started with 'bout 42/45 mpg on my '14, Vision. Now, I'm at 'bout 38 mpg. I haven't had it dyno-tuned (yet). These mpg metrics are obtained from the onboard computer. I haven't verified anything long-hand. The gas pump/fuel-gauge seem to validate the mpg change as well.
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Arkainzeye
Posted 2017-04-25 11:32 AM (#191782 - in reply to #191776)
Subject: Re: Gas mileage with a Lloydz Top Air Filter


Visionary

Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA
I get the around 45 with the same configuration .. my guess.. your fuel map must be VERY rich ..
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johnnyvision
Posted 2017-04-25 6:20 PM (#191783 - in reply to #191776)
Subject: Re: Gas mileage with a Lloydz Top Air Filter


Visionary

Posts: 4278
see if you can find better map here

http://www.thevicshop.com/services/power-commander-maps/
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Arkainzeye
Posted 2017-04-26 6:07 AM (#191785 - in reply to #191776)
Subject: Re: Gas mileage with a Lloydz Top Air Filter


Visionary

Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA
Lloydz, timing wheel, top and front filter, s1l1 , xv-30 cams, pc5, auto tune and my miles is like i said 45 OR MORE .. you can do what i did to accept your trims... i have a 6 foot long usb cord that is ALWAYS left plugged in . I had it running to the trunk ..now i have it running to the glove box, since i removed the trunk
Accepting the trims is a key thing here.....
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Bones
Posted 2017-04-29 7:56 AM (#191802 - in reply to #191776)
Subject: Re: Gas mileage with a Lloydz Top Air Filter


Puddle Jumper

Posts: 43
Rossville, IL
What exhaust are you running? I've tried all sorts of combinations with my bike including different exhausts and fuel controllers and its easy to really screw things up including your milleage.

Once you start down the road with add ons, your mpg shown in the display will never be correct. You have to always hand calculate it to see what you are getting. With all my mods, my display shows I'm getting 52 sometimes, other times 28. I typically average 40-44 depending on how I drive.

Several things to consider here. As one pointed out, running winter fuel makes a big difference in your mpg. Aside from that, if your fuel controller is set up properly, the exhaust is the next biggest thing affecting fuel mileage.

Contrary to poplar thinking, going with anything other than a stock exhaust on these bikes will make the mpg drop and you will lose bottom end torque. Don't believe me? Go look at Lloyds dyno graphs for the Visions and see what makes the most torque on the bottom end. Most of your riding will be in the lower rpm range anyway and is what 90% of your fuel mileage is based off of. For whatever reasons, these bikes need a little back pressure to breath right and with aftermarket exhausts, they lean out too much and the fuel controller has to add extra fuel to try and compensate...hence your lower mpg.

Also contrary to poplar belief and according to Dynojet, you can leave your Autotune turned on and run it that way. And yes, it will continue to trim as you ride adjusting for differences it's seeing coming from the O2 sensors. You can see it continually adjusting using the software. They recommend accepting the trim tabs a few times when you first install it to get it close in the range for when it initially starts, but then will make small adjustments from there. I've been running mine like that for a few years now and not had any problems with it. Some will tell you that the O2 sensors go bad if you leave Autotune turned on, but I say BS. They are a common sensor used in many other applications.

There are tricks though setting up the PCV's that tuners won't tell you as they set them up and is partly why they tell you to turn them off once you accepted the trim levels and it has to do with the way the Vic engineers designed the factory software to meet the emissions standards. For example, when you roll off the throttle on decel, it essentially kills the fuel down to about 1850 rpm, then kicks the fuel back in. That's partly why you get the pop and backfiring on decel and the little lurch. Aftermarket exhausts greatly amplify this popping and backfiring because of their straight through design and is the biggest complaint when running them. One of the tricks is to turn Autotune off in the RPM tables below that RPM and used fixed numbers to add fuel.

The other issue is if you try to run Autotune turned on around town in the 1850 rpm and below is you will roast your nuts off. The motor will get hot idling around town sitting at stoplights and it needs to be fattened up by adding some fuel. You could do it in the A/F tables in the low rpm range, but it gets a bit wonky transitioning and it will actually make it pop and backfire even more if you aren't careful. The trick is to turn Autotune off in the A/F tables below 1850 rpm and manually add some fuel and leave it turned on for anything above that. To manually set the numbers at idle, I actually temporarily lowered my A/F numbers at idle in the table with Autotune turned on to set the trim numbers, then set the A/F back to stock and turned it off below 1850 rpm.

Once you get your bike dialed in however and it's running right, the biggest thing affecting mpg is actually your right wrist and I call that the fun factor. I know stock exhaust is quiet and some say boring, but actually it's a lot more fun as now I get to redline it from stoplight to stoplight without drawing too much attention from our friendly LEO's and leave people wondering what the hell was in that bike?
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Bones
Posted 2017-04-29 9:05 AM (#191804 - in reply to #191776)
Subject: Re: Gas mileage with a Lloydz Top Air Filter


Puddle Jumper

Posts: 43
Rossville, IL
One other thing I forgot.

Check your belt tension as it will affect your fuel mileage. Most dealers have them set way too tight and the manual sucks at telling you how to adjust them and is actually partly wrong in the description. I've seen several broken belts caused by the dealers adjusting them too tight and squeaks because they don't know how to properly align them.

Check your belt when it's cold before going on a ride It should have what the manual calls for...mine calls for about 3/4" deflection. Anything less than that when the bike is cold is too tight. After you ride a few miles and the motor is good and hot, pull over and do a quick check on your tension on the belt. If it's so tight where you can bounce a quarter off it, it definitely needs adjusting.

I've readjusted some of the others that I ride with and the first thing that comes out of the mouth is the bike has more power now and is smooth! (not really true on the power, it's just not bound up now). Then usually a week or two later, they call me and say hey, my bikes getting better fuel mileage now too, what did you do?

The 2 keys to adjusting the belt are 1. You have to do it with the bike stone cold, let it sit overnight on the lift. 2. Adjust the belt tension per the manual WITH THE WEIGHT OF THE BIKE ON THE TIRE. Don't jack the rear tire off the table to set the tension and only use the right adjuster to set it. Once the tension is set, then jack the wheel off the table and adjust the alignment by using the LEFT ADJUSTER ONLY following the procedure in the book! Whatever you do, DON'T TOUCH THE RIGHT ADJUSTER while setting the alignment! After you adjust the alignment, put the weight of the bike back down on the tire and recheck the tension. It should still be balls on if done correctly.

If set properly, the belt will have the the correct deflection when the bike is cold and will be snug but not guitar string tight when the bike is hot. Your belt, wheel bearings, and wallet will love you for it.
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rdbudd
Posted 2017-04-30 10:15 AM (#191808 - in reply to #191802)
Subject: Re: Gas mileage with a Lloydz Top Air Filter


Visionary

Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO
Bones - 2017-04-29 7:56 AM

What exhaust are you running? I've tried all sorts of combinations with my bike including different exhausts and fuel controllers and its easy to really screw things up including your milleage.

Once you start down the road with add ons, your mpg shown in the display will never be correct. You have to always hand calculate it to see what you are getting. With all my mods, my display shows I'm getting 52 sometimes, other times 28. I typically average 40-44 depending on how I drive.

Contrary to poplar thinking, going with anything other than a stock exhaust on these bikes will make the mpg drop and you will lose bottom end torque. Don't believe me? Go look at Lloyds dyno graphs for the Visions and see what makes the most torque on the bottom end. Most of your riding will be in the lower rpm range anyway and is what 90% of your fuel mileage is based off of. For whatever reasons, these bikes need a little back pressure to breath right and with aftermarket exhausts, they lean out too much and the fuel controller has to add extra fuel to try and compensate...hence your lower mpg.


Once you get your bike dialed in however and it's running right, the biggest thing affecting mpg is actually your right wrist and I call that the fun factor. I know stock exhaust is quiet and some say boring, but actually it's a lot more fun as now I get to redline it from stoplight to stoplight without drawing too much attention from our friendly LEO's and leave people wondering what the hell was in that bike?



Good advice. Like myself, you have learned through trial and error that the stock exhaust is usually the best choice for overall performance. You can't convince those people who just want an excuse to make more noise though. They will always justify the louder and hugely expensive exhaust. I prefer to put my money where it actually does some good, and like you, enjoy leaving people wondering "what the hell was in that bike". Lol.

As you said, look at Lloydz dyno charts. He has a 116 big bore Vision making 135 HP------------through the stock exhaust. A 106 isn't going to be restricted by it. In fact, it is the best choice for overall power throughout the entire torque curve when using stock cams or something like the Lloydz VM1 cams.

There are aftermarket exhausts out there where the seller tells the customer that "you have to use a PCV instead of a VFCIII, because you can't remove fuel with a VFCIII". Now think about that. Increased power comes from burning a proper mix of an increased fuel and air mixture within a given engine. Having to reduce fuel from stock, due to an exhaust system change, is counter-productive.

My bike is a nice and quiet sleeper. It is comfortably quiet on trips, and faster and quicker than 1800 Goldwings. What's not to like?

Ronnie

Edited by rdbudd 2017-04-30 10:23 AM
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Derks
Posted 2017-05-16 10:57 AM (#191847 - in reply to #191808)
Subject: Re: Gas mileage with a Lloydz Top Air Filter


Puddle Jumper

Posts: 34
Bloomfield, NJ United States
OK. Sorry for not getting back with my response until now. I've been doing some experimenting with and without the Llodyz top air filter. I found out that I'm getting about the same MPG in either configuration.
Around my area there is a large amount of stop and go traffic (light, congestion, stop signs). My MPG is in the 30's. On the high way it is in the low 40's.
I just added the Lloydz timing gear and set it to about 3.5 degrees. My mileage actually went up. In 6th gear at 60-70 I can get an average of about 50.
I found with the timing gear, gas mileage is up, the engine runs smoother, the choppy feeling you get when a gear is too high has lessened and I can move in slower traffic in a higher gear without it feeling like its bogging down.

Edited by Derks 2017-05-16 11:03 AM
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Derks
Posted 2017-05-16 11:06 AM (#191848 - in reply to #191776)
Subject: Re: Gas mileage with a Lloydz Top Air Filter


Puddle Jumper

Posts: 34
Bloomfield, NJ United States
Bones,

Could you please tell me step by step:

How to set my PCV to turn of AutoTune below 1850 rpms?
What should I set the values to in PCV for the rps below 1850 rpms?
And anything else that will make the bike run better in respect to PCV?

I'm pretty new to tuning motorcycles so I'm a little skittish at making changes.
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Derks
Posted 2017-05-16 11:07 AM (#191849 - in reply to #191776)
Subject: Re: Gas mileage with a Lloydz Top Air Filter


Puddle Jumper

Posts: 34
Bloomfield, NJ United States
Bones,

Could you please tell me step by step:

How to set my PCV to turn of AutoTune below 1850 rpms?
What should I set the values to in PCV for the rps below 1850 rpms?
And anything else that will make the bike run better in respect to PCV?

I'm pretty new to tuning motorcycles so I'm a little skittish at making changes.
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johnnyvision
Posted 2017-05-16 5:34 PM (#191850 - in reply to #191776)
Subject: Re: Gas mileage with a Lloydz Top Air Filter


Visionary

Posts: 4278
Derks

you say doing 60 or 70 mph your getting about 50 mpg. Your burning up your motor.
The fast you go the more fuel you should use. An overall average on hwy should be below 45 mpg.
In town with all the stop lights doesn't really count.
Your doing more harm then good
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johnnyvision
Posted 2017-05-16 5:37 PM (#191851 - in reply to #191776)
Subject: Re: Gas mileage with a Lloydz Top Air Filter


Visionary

Posts: 4278
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA65eZxHa2w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOi9NHRv7jE
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Derks
Posted 2017-05-17 9:53 PM (#191856 - in reply to #191851)
Subject: Re: Gas mileage with a Lloydz Top Air Filter


Puddle Jumper

Posts: 34
Bloomfield, NJ United States
Direct from the factory I got 49 mpg. How is getting better mileage doing damage and lower mileage is not? I have multiple engineering degrees and that goes against everything I have learned.
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Derks
Posted 2017-05-18 9:02 AM (#191859 - in reply to #191856)
Subject: Re: Gas mileage with a Lloydz Top Air Filter


Puddle Jumper

Posts: 34
Bloomfield, NJ United States
Hey JonnyVision, sorry about going off like that. I was having a bad day and I shouldn't have vented it at you or anyone else.
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eotsis1
Posted 2017-05-29 7:43 PM (#191906 - in reply to #191776)
Subject: RE: Gas mileage with a Lloydz Top Air Filter


Puddle Jumper

Posts: 35
, IL United States
my bike has lloyds top filter, k/n front, pcV and adj. timing wheel. All installed by previous owner. Also has a/m cams and pipes per Randy's Cycle in Marengo, Il.
I get about 30 mpg in winter months commuting 30 minutes each way and around 40 in summer. A bit more on one day trips. I once got 50 mpg with a strong tail wind for about 3 hours
These were all calculated figures, not the computers average mpg, which is always high.
Several different guys have mentioned seeing black smoke coming from exhaust when I was 'on the throttle'. I've heard that is normal to run a little rich when these mods are installed.

Edited by eotsis1 2017-05-29 7:45 PM
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