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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | Stopped by the Indian dealer today and man, what sweet machines. These are for real. I sat on one for the first time and knew I was on a motorcycle. It fit almost as well as the Vision. 26.5 seat height and excellent pull back on the handle bars.
Anyway, to my point, when the dealer described the motor and internal make up I said, "that sounds like a Victory motor." He grins and says the same folks developed and designed both engines. He said that the ones that helped developed the Freedom motor are now the one's working for Indian for the 105. Beautiful engine by the way.
Not stirring the pot, but has anyone heard this before? |
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Tourer
Posts: 523
seattle, wa | I thought they were still going to use the Power Plus 100. An Evo with different rocker boxes. |
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Visionary
Posts: 2300
Georgia, west of Atlanta | Yeah, the Indian no matter how you put it is a warmed over long stroke evo engine with the FI or carb on the left side. side covers and trimmed down cooling fins don't make it a "new" proper engine. No cruise control and no stereo, they have a long ways to go........ |
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Cruiser
Posts: 203
Rapid City, SD | I overheard a few Indian reps talking to a few Victory reps at Daytona last year. I only caught snippets of the conversation but the Indian rep seemed like they would be keen on partnering up. |
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Visionary
Posts: 2300
Georgia, west of Atlanta | Yeah I bet. The "new" Indian ( how many times is this now ? ) is being pieced together in Kings Mountain NC and have maybe three dealerships? Whenever I hear about a new indian I always think " Again?, when will it end? Until they can produce a real indian engine they will always have kit bike status to me............. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 64
| There's substantial differences in the Freedom engine and the Power Plus. Stellican, the owners of Indian, did hire engineers from both Victory and Harley, to redevelop the Power Plus from what it was when they purchased the brand in 2004. Saying the Power Plus is just a warmed over Evo is about as accurate as saying a Harley V-twin is just a warmed over Indian V-twin (since HD copied the design way back early in the 20th Century.)
Having ridden several 2010 Indians (I was a ride leader at an Indian demo-day), I was not happy with the amount of vibration the engine produces, particularly around 3,000 RPM. Add in what it's lacking (cruise, heated grips, heated seats, stereo, faring) and you end up with a very stylish ride that you don't want to take very far... for an awful lot of money. If you get a chance to look one over, take a close look at what you have to do to change the oil filter.
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Cruiser
Posts: 156
dinwiddie, va | Yeah, they should give it up already! I couldn't imagine investing my money into a project thats on its 4, 5, 6th revival. I don't even know how many it's been? |
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Visionary
Posts: 1350
| I hate to see us loose another American brand m/c no matter what the name. Indian needs to follow the Brits. Build the bike on it's own merits like Triumph and Norton. When I saw the Indians in Daytona last year I had sticker shock and had to go for a ride. :P
How can they keep finding investors to build overpriced bikes? |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | The point is that Victory and Indian have something in common. Design and style has nothing to do with it either, but the components and engineering. I sat on a Roadmaster and I "FIT" the bike to a T. Okay, now the seat is real leather so there will be a difference of feel, and it will need to be broken in as real leather will need to be. Feet placement is excellent though the floorboards are not as big and the seat height is the same. The pull-back on the handlebars are just right as well.
Marketing, gentleman (and ladies if you are reading) is for the target... I can tell you are not the target, but will admit, I am. I have always loved the looks of a Indian and I really enjoyed myself yesterday killing over a hour of my time from getting home to see my honey.
When he begin to mention material and makeup of the engine is when the covnersation came up and I found out the intimate relationship between America's First Motorcycle and America's Newest Motorcycle, hmmmm.
I won't go into other things we talked about but you guys sound like a bunch of Harley guys talking about the Vision so I'll take all the comments with a grain of salt. Grant it, Indian has and is going through some difficulties and can be criticized for it, but they are opening dealerships around the country and around the world and their target market is buying them. I don't know the criteria or who does it, but the man told me that the Charlotte Indian Dealership is the number one dealership in the nation for all brands. I guess in selling matrix that exceeded what was expected.
He also help me understand that the motorcycle industry knows the target market is the folks who rolls less than 10,000 miles a year on short eventful weekends and that is where the bagger model is. The Vision is NOT that market, the Vision is the Goldwing market and that is the target. Putting on more than 10.000 miles a year makes you the exception.
Indian is stuck in the past with no cruise, no fixed lowers, etc and is targeting the bagger, I want a "real" motorcycle market. I personally think they have done well to keep the look and make a fine fit and finish machine that are individually assembled and not cranked through an assemply line. Each are hand painted, no decals at all.
Now, I didn't notice how hard it is to change the oil filter, but in the scheme of things it is easier, I'm sure, than changing Vision headlight.
The sad thing is forums don't talk motorcycles, they talk their brand, and everything else is a POS, so I expected all the negative comments from the folks, just as I deal with all the negative talk from other brand riders.
One thing that the Indian dealer agreed on, is I have the bike already to eat up the miles I do every year, the Indian is not that bike. With that said though, that is one of my target bikes and I hope to be riding one in a few years. Personally it has all the make up of the bike I want, and feel with the looks I absolutely love. Indians are not the same as Harley's and I can pick them out of the crowd almost always. The bike has a big beefy feel to it, not the little feel of the Harley. It is light on the balance just like the Vision, and it has the makings to be a long lasting engine. Now with that said, I'm sure there is some maintenance to be done that I've not had to do with the Freedom. The engine is sweet sounding and does not have the vibration at idle as a Harley. But there is some vibration as that is part of the appeal for the owner, and I agree. Since I wasn't going through the wickets to pre-qualifiy I couldn't test ride, as they only allow those for folks who can roll out the door and I don't blame them on that.
He also pointed out that this is not a 2003 makeover, but went back to the 40's and 50's to keep the original look and style and then come to present day technology. The market worldwide is focused on nostalga and not futuristc. They are not into all that extra stuff, if that is what you want, get a Wing, BMW or Vision. Another thing is that they use the same manufacturer for the handle bar housing as Victory, so there is another kinship there as well.
It is what it is, and I had a great time, bought an Indian hat and T-shirt that I'll be sporting proudly while riding my Vision. By the way, excellent material used to make it to so that will last a long time.
Edited by varyder 2010-04-02 4:55 AM
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Tourer
Posts: 374
Tucson, AZ | varyder, Thanks for the writeup. I also rode one recently just to see, and for the same reasons would have one as a second bike if money was not an option. Hundred mile days would find me on the Indian, but those are far and few for me, so the Vision would still be my main ride. To me it would be like owning a classic hot rod, theres days made for just showing off and enjoying the world in a different way, then theres days when I want to really ride hundreds of miles, and the Vision would be my choice.
mike |
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Cruiser
Posts: 260
| They did hire the lead tech that designed the original Hammer Style engine that was use in 99,00 and 01. I do not believe he was there for the freedom design. I have to agree, I have alwas been attracted to the Indian and like the Old design. Just to much $$$ for what you got even back in 03 IMO. |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | I told him the $$$ is what is holding me back and he replies with that people want a Bentley cheap too! I clarified that didn't want cheap, I just couldn't afford it at the time. He continued to entertain me for another hour anyways. Come to find out, he was the owner of the dealership. |
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Visionary
Posts: 2300
Georgia, west of Atlanta | Bently, he's gotta be kidding ??? I believe those come with cruise control. Talking about the dealership in Gastonia, I've been there and talked to a sales person, sounded like the same stuff I heard from a sales person in a Sararsota Fl. delership in 2003 before the last time Indian went belly up. Back then I was on my new RoadGlide ( 47,000 miles now ), this time I was on my new Vision. Maybe they'll make it this time only time and wheels out the door will tell that story. |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | not to keep arguing the point but it is what you want... Even if Victory was to go belly up or take over the world I got what I wanted. On cruise, I personnally don't use mine except for the very occasional throttle lock. So on the Indian not having all the Wing crap is a selling point for me... |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 28
| Not to argue any points one way or the other, but I have a friend in FL that bought one of the new Indians a few months ago and it is a beautiful machine. It was in his shop at the time, but not road ready. His personal opinion is that he now wishes he had not bought it because it has been in the shop more than he has been able to keep it on the road. He did say they have been doing the right thing from a service perspective, but felt it was released far too early and does not yet have all the bugs and kinks shaken out of it. I loved the new line of Indians when they first started talking about them again about a year ago but the target market is well above what I am willing to spend on a motorcycle. When you are talking a base price of 30K and going up from there, probably not the best timing for that price point.
That being said, I do hope they make it as it is great to have more American manufacturers. Sadly, this may be another relatively short lived Indian and most likely won't make it for the long haul. I hope I am wrong.
MH |
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Cruiser
Posts: 64
| Stellican has said from the time they purchased Indian that it's their goal to make Indian a luxury brand, with an owner experience similar to Bentley. As a result, you have a machine that's hand assembled by small teams, using very nice materials. While I wouldn't say it was a 2003 warmover, I WOULD say that it's an evolution of the Gilroy Power Plus Chiefs. There are more similarities than differences to the frame. Parts from one will bolt onto the frame of the other. The major difference being modifications to the rear suspension to accommodate a larger rear tire. Although the engine has been reengineered, it also is an evolution of the Gilroy Power Plus. As a matter of fact, the reason why the engine is now 105ci is that they removed the iron cylinder liners - going to nikasil treated cylinder walls - which increased the bore.
If you're interested in an Indian and think of the Chief as too expensive, they are planning a Scout, which will be less expensive. They have also said that they plan on a model above the Chief - possibly at straight 4 - as their premiere model.
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | I'm having to re-evaluate my actual purchase of an Indian. One, if I did get one, $30,000+ it'll have to be in a mighty good shed every night, not like my Vision or any of my previous bikes. Literally they are a work of art, to me, and have a lot of interesting detail that appears flawless. Nothing, and I mean nothing looks cheap and it is definitely quality craftmanship. The target market is not the everyday rider like me or anyone who would complain about the price. I've always wanted to own either a Shelby, Cobra, or GT as all of those are work of art as well. For motorcycles, it is the Indian. I can justify riding it everyday if I hold out a few years and get an 2010 used one for a significant lower price. There is no doubt it would be low mileage, but it was made clear to me that this bike is good for a long ride, but not just everyday. The owner is an avid rider, but his long days are 400-500 and he has done Iron Butts on an Indian. He was not afraid to tell me I was on the right bike for how I roll, and he was not afraid to tell me that the Indian was not that bike.
He also mentioned that Indian is in a growth spurt and is opening dealerships around the world and here in the US, and at a good pace. The investors have great confidence that Indian has hit the target this time. I told him not having a dealer close by is not a concern to me, but he went on to explain that they will work with any motorcycle techician anywhere to help them do what they need to do. The service bays are spotless and I only saw three on the rack. One was in a service, one was an 2003 that needed a few things and I don't recall what the third was.
We talked our passion, bikes of all brands without bashing, except japanese which he won't talk at all, and how we all should be grateful to Harley for the marketing they have done to lure wannabe's in, as many of us probably wouldn't be riding today. We even agreed that Harley needs to keep doing what they are doing so that the rest will stay in the game. I guess the strategy there is that it keeps the cost down for those of us that really like to ride and for those that ride to live is more than a saying.
But with anything, you have to start somewhere, it doesn't take long on this forum or the other forums that Victory has their problems as well. We just have to remember it is not all, just the few that become vocal and make it a bigger problem than what it is.
Ride safe.
Edited by varyder 2010-04-02 9:14 PM
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Tourer
Posts: 432
Gettysburg, 2008 Tour Premium | I owned a Gilroy Indian. I appreciate what they are doing keeping the name alive and have to admit that in no recent time has the climate been wrong for introducing a premium brand. That said I asked if they offer tours to the production facility and their reply knowing that I was a past Indian owner was "no." Only if I owned a new Indian could I get in. Screw that and them. The bike was the worst machine I ever owned. I rode from Gettysburg to Phoenix and back and all I can say is it was good to have some mechanical knowledge. I rejetted my carb at a NM rest stop as well as bypassed my solenoid along the way because the starter relay when kaput. The last guy that came up to me and told me how neat my Indian Chief Vintage was I told I am going in the restaurant and the key were in it. When I traded the bike it needed head gaskets. These engine would generally blow the bottom ends around 18K and the people that claimed to have the fix for the engines charges three grand for basicly another 12-18 K worth of use. I am getting tired of writing now so I will leave it there.
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Tourer
Posts: 432
Gettysburg, 2008 Tour Premium | I owned a Gilroy Indian. I appreciate what they are doing keeping the name alive and have to admit that in no recent time has the climate been wrong for introducing a premium brand. That said I asked if they offer tours to the production facility and their reply knowing that I was a past Indian owner was "no." Only if I owned a new Indian could I get in. Screw that and them. The bike was the worst machine I ever owned. I rode from Gettysburg to Phoenix and back and all I can say is it was good to have some mechanical knowledge. I rejetted my carb at a NM rest stop as well as bypassed my solenoid along the way because the starter relay when kaput. The last guy that came up to me and told me how neat my Indian Chief Vintage was I told I am going in the restaurant and the key were in it. When I traded the bike it needed head gaskets. These engine would generally blow the bottom ends around 18K and the people that claimed to have the fix for the engines charges three grand for basicly another 12-18 K worth of use. I am getting tired of writing now so I will leave it there.
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | UMMMMM Got to ask. Exactly what does a 45 degree V-twin with push rods, Cast liners, dry sump oiling, multi case castings, roller bearing, kife\fork rods, and a chain driven primary have; that could be remotly in common with a Vic motor?? Don't get me wrong. I like the Indian, and hope they can get their shit together soon enough to not fail again. Lot's of great things going on with them, but a high tech drive train is not one of them |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | There are few things that appeals to the average rider for the Indian. The style has always appealled to me and would love to own what I believe what I want to believe what Indian is.
The reason for my post was as I was talking with the dealer about the bike he named some stuff like aluminum engine and the nickle lining. I said that sounds like a Vic motor, and he goes on to say the folks that did the freedom engine are in on the Indian engine. I also enjoyed talking with a guy that tells it like it is without putting down anyone else's ride. He complimented me for chosing the Vision as an everyday and high mileage rider. Even when he found out that I wasn't even close to buying, that didn't matter to him, he talked with me like a friend.
Everything he told me about the Indian is hitting me right where I want to be hit. I took on another level of appreciation for the passion I have and those who love to ride share, and it ain't about the machine, but the ride. I'm not trying to sell anyone on Indian, take it or leave just as many folks do with the Vision or Victory.
As far as all the tech stuff, it is available somewhere, but keep in mind, the Indian motor is what it is, and the Vic is what it is, the material though share a commonality. Indians are not made for off the line runnin' nor will ever be, nor are they into all the other stuff that Harley, Victory or anyone else for that matter does or caters to. They are what they are and by the sounds of things they have a market with dealers opening all the time since last year. The dealer was very please with what has happened in the last year and so he says, so is everyone else that is interested.
Edited by varyder 2010-04-02 10:47 PM
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 5
| I was one of the suckers that bought an Indian in 2000 and it listed for$26,000. Indian Chief Millenium Edition I got stranded 6 times in 5 months, fenders cracked, paint peeled off the gas tank, pipes fell off, electrical problems and had a hard time getting rid of it for $14,000.00 Worst motorcycle I ever owned. However that was not the same maker as now but they will have to stay in business for several years before I would ever take a chance again. They were a great looking bike then and still are.
Edited by jjonesmcret 2010-04-07 4:27 AM
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Cruiser
Posts: 177
| Personally i think Indian is the ugliest bike ever produced. What is up woth the tassels on EVERYTHING? Maybe it is a generational thing or something, to each is own but i just never got the Indian thing on top of it it sounds like they have a hard time staying on the road. |
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Tourer
Posts: 523
seattle, wa | Tassels belong on cheerleaders, not motorcycles. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | The optional flying nun seat from the new Indian
(indian seat_613x480.jpg)
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 indian seat_613x480.jpg (64KB - 1 downloads)
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Indian and Victory
