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Fountain Inn, SC United States | Lloyd Greer has offered up his insights on choosing an exhaust pipe in his latest article:
Performance, Appearance, Sound: Picking the Perfect Pipe
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Iron Butt
Posts: 752
Broken Arrow, OK | Thanks. I did the top filter and cams at the National Meet in Hot Springs. I left the exhaust stock. Glad I did. |
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Visionary
Posts: 2300
Georgia, west of Atlanta | Well said....... |
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Tourer
Posts: 500
| Does this all mean that the factory Stage 1, dealer installed flash and air filter kit, is worth the change or a waste of money???Just curious as my Stage 1 seems to run fine for me...Although I am thinking of riding to Iowa this summer and have Rylan Vos install the top air filter and timing wheel to hopefully get a little more bottom end boost... |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | opas ride - 2013-01-04 3:50 PM
Does this all mean that the factory Stage 1, dealer installed flash and air filter kit, is worth the change or a waste of money???Just curious as my Stage 1 seems to run fine for me...Although I am thinking of riding to Iowa this summer and have Rylan Vos install the top air filter and timing wheel to hopefully get a little more bottom end boost...
Was it worth it? Only you can answer that. You got a performance increase. If you are happy and don't want even more, it was worth it.
Was it a waste of money? I would say yes, but with a qualifier and for this reason. The money you spent on the Stage 1 would have better been spent on a set of Lloydz VM1 cams and a top filter and a VFCIII fuel controller, leaving the stock exhaust. Those three items would have gotten you about 110 HP and 110 torque by themselves. Adding Lloydz ECU reprogram will extend that power by 900 RPM. Doing that stuff now after spending the money on the Stage 1 would mean the the money spent on the Stage 1 was "wasted" because it would be erased or over ridden.
As far as Lloyd's article, I've been telling people for years that spending money on aftermarket exhausts, if the goal was more performance, was a waste of money and better spent elsewhere. I found that out 30 some years ago when I was into high performance Japanese sport bikes and had my own dyno. Most of the aftermarket "performance pipes" usually lost power on the low end and gained very little on the high end. Any performance advantage they had was due to losing weight with the aftermarket 4 into 1 pipe, which would gain you a little on the drag strip. I ended up running my drag bike with just four short head pipes and no collector or "muffler" at all. That was the least amount of weight and the HP was as good at WOT as any "performance pipe" I had tried. That isn't practical on the street of course. On the street, it's hard to beat the performance of the stock exhaust. In other words, Lloyd is exactly right.
I'm running the stock exhaust on my Vision and it runs 12.60s @ 105 MPH with the trunk on and junk in it on the same day and track where an 1800 Goldwing could barely get out of the 13s and ran 100 MPH. The Vision with the stock exhaust makes more power than a Goldwing. Dyno charts back up that claim. The Goldwing makes about 96 HP at the wheel, and makes it in a little narrower RPM range than the Lloydz equipped Vision that's running a stock exhaust. The difference is worth 5 MPH in the quarter mile.
Ronnie
Edited by rdbudd 2013-01-04 5:25 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| opas ride - 2013-01-04 3:50 PM Does this all mean that the factory Stage 1, dealer installed flash and air filter kit, is worth the change or a waste of money???Just curious as my Stage 1 seems to run fine for me...Although I am thinking of riding to Iowa this summer and have Rylan Vos install the top air filter and timing wheel to hopefully get a little more bottom end boost... To bad you don't say where you live. I could do the top filter for you and it takes about a hour to do |
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Tourer
Posts: 500
| Thanks all for the responses..I live in Michigan about 45 miles NW of Detroit...If I decide to make the above minor mods I have a local tech that has told me he can handle the changes under the direction of Rylan Vos, who agreed to guide him, later this year...Unless I ride to the AVR and stop off at The Vic Shop...I will certainly keep Johnnyvision in mind as I am 73 this year and at this point need a good wrench to do any mods....I know cams, fuel controller, top filter, etc. is a great way to go, but I really don't want to spend the bucks, honestly don't need the extra "oomph" and my bride of almost 40 years would have my gonads on a platter if I added more power.......Just kidding...... |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1066
Peru, IN | Good article but it doesn't say which pipes are good for which mods. That would be helpful. My plan is to get a Lloyds top filter, Vic K&N front filter and a set of WDs pipes in the spring. In a year or two, I plan on Lloyds cams and timing gear. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1066
Peru, IN | Guess I can't edit my previous post.
I forgot. I'll also be adding a VFC in the spring. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1350
| Thanks again Lloyd. ALWAYS enjoy your articles. I can't figure out where you find the time. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | Monkeyman - 2013-01-04 11:16 PM
Good article but it doesn't say which pipes are good for which mods. That would be helpful. My plan is to get a Lloyds top filter, Vic K&N front filter and a set of WDs pipes in the spring. In a year or two, I plan on Lloyds cams and timing gear.
Actually Chris, he does say. If you are going with a stock block 106 in a Victory Vision or Cross bike and are going to use Lloydz VM1 cams, a top filter (I would spend the money for the top filter before I would spend it on a K&N front filter. Nothing wrong with the K&N, it's reusable, but you won't get a performance increase from it), and fuel controller, then keep your STOCK exhaust. You will not gain anything but more noise with an aftermarket exhaust and possibly may even lose a little power at some point in the torque curve. If you want more noise, change the exhaust but don't expect any power increase from it.
If you are on a budget and want to get the most power for the dollars spent, the recipe is VM1 cams, top filter, fuel controller, stock exhaust. That will get you in the range of 105 to 110 at the wheel and the power will still be coming on when you smack the 5500 RPM rev limiter. Adding Lloydz ECU will extend that power to beyond 6000 RPM and help a bit on the low end too.
You can spend money on an aftermarket exhaust, which will do nothing but make more noise, or you can spend the same money on Lloydz VM1 cams, which will (with a fuel controller and a top filter) give you a 25% to 30% power increase. It's your money.
I have no personal experience with Lloydz adjustable timing wheel, but reports from Kevin and Rylan indicate that it does what Lloyd says it does, which should be no surprise. It would be a good addition and I may get one when I recover from paying for Christmas, property taxes, and heating bills.
Aftermarket exhausts on stock block 106 are good for making more noise and lightening your wallet. They do not make more power than the stock exhaust.
Re-read the article, paying special attention to the second paragraph under the section titled "The black art of pipe building."
Ronnie
Edited by rdbudd 2013-01-05 10:39 AM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1066
Peru, IN | Ronnie, the only reason I want an aftermarket exhaust is for the sound. I should have said that. I don't want earsplitting, wake the neighbors in the next county loud but I don't want to hear the motor as much.
The Vic "Performance" filter is marketed as just that so I figured it improved the air flow. If it doesn't, I won't buy it until I'm ready for a new front filter anyway. Good to know.
I'm definitely on a budget. More so now that they've killed my over time. I had planned on buying $2000-$3000 worth of "stuff" over the winter. Now, I have to do it a little bit at a time. Kind of a bummer but no real big deal. I still need to save up money for AVR and hopefully PITA (NADA? ROLO? the Ozark thing you told me about) as well as new tires before AVR (I hope). |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | Changing the exhaust for a change in sound is a legitimate cause. Changing it for an expected performance increase isn't.
Lot's of things are marketed as "performance parts", but few deliver on the promise. The Vic "performance filter" does give you the advantage of being re-usable. Lloydz top filter does too, and it actually adds air flow to the motor.
I spent slightly less than $1300 total for parts and labor for a 30% increase in power, and that includes having my ECU reprogrammed by Lloydz (which puts the icing on the cake). Inflation has taken its toll since I did that, but I expect that you could still duplicate it all for less than $2000.
The biggest performance gain will come from the VM1 cams. You need a fuel controller to keep up with/feed them. Adding more air intake adds more power yet. The stock exhaust flows plenty good enough to handle that and more (big bore).
If you want to get started but wait to add cams later, get the fuel controller and a top filter first and the adjustable timing wheel if you want. Add cams later. Lloydz ECU has a better timing map and base fuel map and the 6400 RPM extend really comes into play after you add the cams.
You can easily get more sound from your stock exhaust with a cheap piece of 1 inch steel pipe and a BFH. Angle cut one end of the steel pipe to a steep angle, creating a chisel/punch. Stick it in the end of your stock muffler and hit it with the BFH. That will punch through the inner baffle and lay the punched out piece down flat. Quick and easy. You end up with a 1 inch straight through exhaust channel surrounded by the original baffling. If you don't like it, you can still spend your hard-earned dollars an an expensive aftermarket exhaust or have yours re-cored.
The get together in Eureka Springs is called VITO (Victory In The Ozarks) in the Spring and FITO if repeated in the Fall.
Ronnie
Edited by rdbudd 2013-01-05 12:51 PM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1066
Peru, IN | Well definitely good to know about the Victory "Performance" front filter. I'll forgo that for a year or so. I think KevinX was doing the Lloyd cam parties for $1400. I "think" that included cams, top filter, VFC and timing thingy (including labor, of course). My best bet it to wait about a year for 2 reasons. First, I don't have the money right now. Second, my bike is brand new and still under warranty. I would imagine the cams will void any part of the motor warranty. After I've had it a year or so, any mechanical issues should be apparent. If nothing pops up, it probably won't and I won't need to worry much about the warranty.
I might try that exhaust trick in the spring but with my luck, I'd end up putting that spear through the side of the muffler can.  WDs pipes are either $200 (for the non-baffles) or $289 (?) (for the baffled). I'll have to make sure he'll take modified pipes as a core before I decide but at least I have yet another option. There was someone on the VOG (I think) who pulled the baffles out of his pipes and made his own baffle. I never heard a sound clip but he said it sounded great (not too loud/not too quiet). Maybe I need to find someone with a welder and remove my own baffles if the pipe trick doesn't suit me.
VITO. That was it. Thanks. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | You can pull the baffle and do the work on a bench, but there's no need to go to all that work. You won't put a spear through the muffler can. The steel pipe will be centered and guided by the inner muffler tube. Punching though the front baffle just allows some of the exhaust flow to go straight through. Here's a link to a thread that details pulling the baffle. Look at the 5th picture down that shows the complete baffle assembly and picture running a punch through from the rear. http://www.vision-riders.com/bb/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=12324&po...
Sorry if I'm pissing off any aftermarket pipe makers, but I grew up back in the 50's as one of 8 kids on a small farm and learned early on in life how to get results without spending a lot of money. There wasn't a lot of money to spend. That habit has stayed with me to this day.
Ronnie
Edited by rdbudd 2013-01-05 6:56 PM
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Cruiser
Posts: 262
Flowery Branch Ga | The only thing I could add to the conversation is about WD pipes. I have the unbaffled ones. They sound good and are loud enough without pissing off everyone on my street when I go to work in the middle of the night. I haven't noticed any performance gains or losses. Per Kevinx I unplugged the O2 sensors. I haven't done any other mods. |
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New Article: Lloyd Greer on Choosing an Exhaust Pipe