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Iron Butt
Posts: 804
Perry Hall, MD | With the higher temperatures (93 degrees here today) it is a good time for a reminder to watch out for tar snakes. I was coming off of the highway this afternoon and while leaning into the left turn onto the surface road the front tire went into a slide on one. Fortunately no one was in the lane to my right since that was where I ended up at. When I stopped at the next traffic light I dragged my heel across one of the 3" wide snakes and the surface smeared with no effort. Sure wish that they would come up with a better way, or at least a smaller spray nozzle for repairing the cracks in the roadway.
Be careful all. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 122
Westchester Co., NY | A good reminder for all. |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| On my street glides I never noticed tar snakes and with the vision holly crap.
E3 tires suck. Went to Metzler and tar snakes all most a thing of the passed. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1365
Central Maryland | Yep; I got bit by tar snakes as well today. Pretty familiar with them on the Vision now.. so don't pucker up as bad.. as I used to initially with them. |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | I hate to say it, but ive always wondered if a motorcyclist had a accident because of a tar snake. And the tar snake was proven to be the cause, could this results in a law suit ? Arent the roads supposed to be "safe" for all street legal vehicles ? IF this was proven to be UNsafe for 2 wheeled vehicles, especially when used in curves and turns.. Just a thought... Makes me wonder if other states D.O.T. are aware of this... with more and more cyclists on the road now than ever in the history of motorcycles it makes me wonder... just a thought... |
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Visionary
Posts: 2118
Pitt Meadows, BC Canada | willtill - 2013-06-01 3:03 PM Yep; I got bit by tar snakes as well today. Pretty familiar with them on the Vision now.. so don't pucker up as bad.. as I used to initially with them. +1 Fortunately for me - we don't get the 'REALLY HOTS' where I ride - so our SNAKES aren't quite as scary. But like Willtill - I have learned to treat them with respect. Hell - with FEAR !!!! AND some anger - we gotta beat the s**t out of them SOB's that figured that crap out ... |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | 'dem blasted E3's and tar snakes. I realized this past weekend that on a previous trip when the roads were wet, I had to run a light because it was just too slick because there were tar snakes. Well, I could have stopped, but I opted to run since every time I hit the brakes it would slide BECAUSE OF THE E3s on TAR SNAKES. So, I've decided to get a bike that doesn't run E3s stock, and I just hope the Indian comes with a car tire just like the good ol' days...
Edited by varyder 2013-06-01 8:35 PM
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 30
Scottsdale | I just don't understand why Vic usies the Dunlops. I replaced mine with Metzs world of difference. Still have the Dunlops on my new Vision but not much longer |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | Honestly, I've not seen the problems with the E3s as others claim. While we can blame a lot on the tire because of perception, the road compound is the primary culprit. I try to read and interpret what I can for myself, me, not anyone else. I then draw my own conclusion and I find that the "so-called" experts give the truth away that what they say is not the case of the fact they are trying to purport. Victory made the right choice for the Vision when it put on the E3s, and I'll use nothing else.
Though, all the reading can be rather humorous to all the claims made how something else of choice is so much superior...leaps and bounds, and even makes child-birth a pleasure. |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | Arkainzeye - 2013-06-01 7:52 PM I hate to say it, but ive always wondered if a motorcyclist had a accident because of a tar snake. And the tar snake was proven to be the cause, could this results in a law suit ? Arent the roads supposed to be "safe" for all street legal vehicles ? IF this was proven to be UNsafe for 2 wheeled vehicles, especially when used in curves and turns.. Just a thought... Makes me wonder if other states D.O.T. are aware of this... with more and more cyclists on the road now than ever in the history of motorcycles it makes me wonder... just a thought... Virginia seems to use the tar snake compound in wide patches on curves on some back roads. When it rains and I'm on these roads I take it extra careful, but yeah, if you can prove that it is the cause, I'm sure hoping someone could make a differences. But, truthfully, when I travel below the posted speed limit, that is congruent to the conditions, it doesn't seem to be a problem. So, my only conclusion I could draw is that it would be my own fault if I was traveling faster than the posted speed limit and did the ditch dance. |
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Visionary
Posts: 2118
Pitt Meadows, BC Canada | varyder - 2013-06-01 6:34 PM 'dem blasted E3's and tar snakes. I realized this past weekend that on a previous trip when the roads were wet, I had to run a light because it was just too slick because there were tar snakes. Well, I could have stopped, but I opted to run since every time I hit the brakes it would slide BECAUSE OF THE E3s on TAR SNAKES. So, I've decided to get a bike that doesn't run E3s stock, and I just hope the Indian comes with a car tire just like the good ol' days... I wuz about to bite yer bum, Chris (about the E3 thing) until I realized yu wuz just kindling... But your additional comment later about WIDE tar snakes is absolutely right on. In the Pacific Northwest - our Tar Snakes are NARROW - and I actually 'choose' a route thru a turn that mostly avoids the snake. Problem is - I'm so busy 'choosing the route' - that I MIGHT NOT see and plan for some other problem .... so - the point is - even though I avoid the tar snake - I might not avoid something else ... SNAKES ARE A DANGER TO ALL BIKERS - and SOMEONE WHO ALLOWS THIS - needs to ride as my passenger thru them someday to understand WHY !!!
Edited by donetracey 2013-06-01 11:08 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | Riding is always a double-edge sword for me because I ride by feel most of the time, which may not be within the established boundaries set by our municipalities. Dangerous they are, I totally agree with you and there should be something done about them, but I just can't seem to build the argument, because I have no problems within those stinkin' boundaries... Help me out here, Don...
Edited by varyder 2013-06-01 11:22 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 2118
Pitt Meadows, BC Canada | CHRIS ! We need to organize an "ALL TAR SNAKES DRIVE" where EVERY entrant needs to have a POLITICIAN on board ....
Sounds difficult - but nothing VISIONEERS can't handle, right ?
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | varyder - 2013-06-01 10:54 PM
Arkainzeye - 2013-06-01 7:52 PM I hate to say it, but ive always wondered if a motorcyclist had a accident because of a tar snake. And the tar snake was proven to be the cause, could this results in a law suit ? Arent the roads supposed to be "safe" for all street legal vehicles ? IF this was proven to be UNsafe for 2 wheeled vehicles, especially when used in curves and turns.. Just a thought... Makes me wonder if other states D.O.T. are aware of this... with more and more cyclists on the road now than ever in the history of motorcycles it makes me wonder... just a thought... Virginia seems to use the tar snake compound in wide patches on curves on some back roads.? When it rains and I'm on these roads I take it extra careful, but yeah, if you can prove that it is the cause, I'm sure hoping someone could make a differences.? But, truthfully, when I travel below the posted speed limit, that is congruent to the conditions, it doesn't seem to be a problem.? So, my only conclusion I could draw is that it would be my own fault if I was traveling faster than the posted speed limit and did the ditch dance.
what about the people that slide in the on/off ramp to a highway/interstate? Im sure they are not going that much Above a posted speed limited especially with a car in front of them . Tar snales seem to be greatly affected by temperature as well . Its not just the dunlop E3 that side on Hot tar. My other vision did the same thing Metz tires.. Hot tar doesnt care what brand of tire you have. Hell look at the compounds needed to make these tar snakes... |
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Tourer
Posts: 523
seattle, wa | I don't think it's the tires fault. I wonder if it is because the tire alignment is off just a hair.
I know that if I don't get my tires aligned perfectly on my older bike, it tends to follow grooves, and is more susceptible to the Tar Snake Shake.
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Iron Butt
Posts: 612
| Arkainzeye - 2013-06-02 8:32 AM
varyder - 2013-06-01 10:54 PM
Arkainzeye - 2013-06-01 7:52 PM I hate to say it, but ive always wondered if a motorcyclist had a accident because of a tar snake. And the tar snake was proven to be the cause, could this results in a law suit ? Arent the roads supposed to be "safe" for all street legal vehicles ? IF this was proven to be UNsafe for 2 wheeled vehicles, especially when used in curves and turns.. Just a thought... Makes me wonder if other states D.O.T. are aware of this... with more and more cyclists on the road now than ever in the history of motorcycles it makes me wonder... just a thought... Virginia seems to use the tar snake compound in wide patches on curves on some back roads.? When it rains and I'm on these roads I take it extra careful, but yeah, if you can prove that it is the cause, I'm sure hoping someone could make a differences.? But, truthfully, when I travel below the posted speed limit, that is congruent to the conditions, it doesn't seem to be a problem.? So, my only conclusion I could draw is that it would be my own fault if I was traveling faster than the posted speed limit and did the ditch dance.
what about the people that slide in the on/off ramp to a highway/interstate? Im sure they are not going that much Above a posted speed limited especially with a car in front of them . Tar snales seem to be greatly affected by temperature as well . Its not just the dunlop E3 that side on Hot tar. My other vision did the same thing Metz tires.. Hot tar doesnt care what brand of tire you have. Hell look at the compounds needed to make these tar snakes...
Bingo! Its hot goo people.... the tire make and compound is of absolutely NO consequence. It's like saying one motorcycle tire is far better on pure ice than another. Simply not true when the surface itself is what is sliding, as in the case of the goo/gel tar snake. The only thing that could help is a wider footprint, such as a car tire, as it can straddle the snake and still have some rubber in contact with pavement (as long as it's not leaned over on it's edge as I see in most pro CT videos). Ooops, did I just give props to a CT on an MC ? 
Other than that, it's like saying E3's don't slide in oil but Metzelers do ! Hogwash, oil is oil, tar is tar, neither cares about the brand or compound of the tire.
Edited by Turk 2013-06-02 10:25 AM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 804
Perry Hall, MD | I don't believe that the tire had anything to do with the problem I had with the tar snake. I took the turn faster than I should have and didn't have time to alter my path once I saw the potential hazard. Seeing what happened when I dragged my lug sole boot over the soft tar I don't see how the compound or tread pattern would have made any difference.
A while back a member reported that their state (Pennsylvania I believe) mandated that tar used on road repairs needed to include particulate to enhance traction. He said that the regulation came about as a result of motorcyclist petitioning for it. Anyone happen to know someone on the Highway Safety Board who could promote some research on the subject? |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 43
Rossville, IL | Man, where do I start....
First of all, don't shoot the messenger. I am a Field Engineer with the Illinois Dept of Transportation who oversees 6 Team Sections in 4 counties who put down those "tar snakes".
A little about the reasoning for tar snakes. Over the last several years, our wonderful EPA friends have made us change the oils we use in our asphalt pavements resulting in asphalt that is more "brittle" and less able to heal itself. Also, with the push for better fuel economy, semi's are running higher pressures in the tires and with 80,000# loads, they cause a lot of rutting in the pavement which dictates the need for the more brittle pavement as well.
The result is the pavements have a lot more cracks that open up now and allow water to run down through the layers. In the winter, it freezes and breaks the bond between the layers which subsequently allows it to chunk out and cause potholes. In the intense summer heat, the water intrusion causes pavement blowups at the joints.
We've tried other maintenance methods to seal the cracks including oil & chip seals. Our state pays vehicle damage claims and you can imagine the number of windshields that get broken with oil & chip, so we don't do many of those anymore. The only other way of fixing the cracks without doing another resurfacing is to do what we call "rout & sealing", aka tar snakes.
In our state, the sealing is with a material called Crafco. It is a rubberized asphalt compound that comes in large bricks that have to be heated, then hand applied using a wand with a shoe to fill the crack.
That's where it starts to get interesting. When our Team Sections do the work, I am fully aware of the safety issues being a motorcyclist myself. I make sure that they put the narrowest shoe on the wand (1" and tell them to only fill the cracks on the centerline, edgeline, and any transverse crack that you can put the width of a pencil in to. I specifically tell them to stay out of the wheel lanes with longitudinal cracks and don't make it look like a spiders web when they are done. For the most part, my crews do a good job with this and we seal most of the cracks in the pavement without greatly affecting the safety of the motorcyclist.
However, we are mandated to contract a lot of this work out as well and that's where we have issues. The contracts are set up where they get paid by the amount of material they put down and when they hit the contract dollar amount, that's the end of the job. In the eyes of the contractor, they want to put as much material down in the shortest distance they can in order to make the most profit. Consequently, they like to use wide 3" shoes, put in on thick so it sticks up, and fill every tiny hairline crack there is resulting in a checkerboard pavement when they are done. The contracts are overseen by a different department, so we don't get much say in making the contractors put it down like we do.
The problem with the Crafco material and motorcycle tires are many. It is a rubberlike material that has a low friction coefficient (much like a rubber railroad crossing where you easily spin your tires). Our motorcycle tires are rounded to allow us to lean in to the turns, so there is just a narrow contact patch in the center of the tire. As it encounters a raised tar snake that runs longitudinally down the road, it changes the contact point which causes the bike to want to follow and/or fight with the strip much like grooved roads do. Coupled with the low coefficient of friction, it leads to that uncomfortable squirm we all don't like. (not advocating car tires on motorcycles, but probably a "pro" for them in this case, ha!) ;-)
I've done a lot of research on this and other states use other types of materials as well. Some use softer compounds of the rubberized material while others use an emulsion type oil which is really soft and squishy. Some states use sand on top of it, others use a fine aggregate, while others like us actually put toilet paper on top of it. The reason is not what you think...it's a "blotter" used to keep it from sticking to tires as it cures and keeps it from being pulled back out of the crack. Actually putting sand or fine aggregate on it makes it worse as it makes it a higher "lip" that causes the bike to dance.
Now, where do we go from here? I don't think any of the DOT's will ever get away from sealing the cracks in the pavement as they are strapped for money to repair the roads the way it is now. However, changing how it's done, the materials used, and limiting it to centerline, edge line, and major transverse cracks will go a long way to helping. Educating the maintenance crews (many are bike riders also) like I have done helps them understand the problem. Getting the DOT's to change how they write the contracts and administer them to make sure the contractors aren't burning large quantities in short distances is key also.
ABATE has taken a position with this and I would encourage you to discuss this with your local chapter if you are a member. They have been talking to FHWA officials in DC to try and lobby for some changes. I would also encourage you to talk to your State DOT's. They all have a Highway Safety Unit that is responsible for Highway safety in every state as the Federal funding is dictated by how well they are reducing the number of fatalities on their Highway Systems. Lastly, talk to your local Representatives. That's how most of our inquiries come in to our office as they are representing one of their "constituents" and we have to respond to the inquiry. Being a safety issue, we can push it to our Safety Unit for review to help bring this to their attention. |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | I'm not sure where we stand here in Virginia, but Maryland and West Virginia seems to use the same compound as well. Virginia also likes to tar and gravel a lot of roads, and we have a few locally that have been redone recently. Since my desire is to ride another day, I put the onus on me to ride according to the conditions, as we all should, and remind others to do the same. While I don't like it, and I do believe that the road condition is a factor in accidents, it is often just one factor. I do believe we need to lobby, and lobby hard to make the road condition, where possible, a least likely contributor. The other issue in that same arena is the painted surfaces like at school zones and stop junctures. A savvy should know that a hard takeoff from a light on a rainy day can spell disaster, or coming to a hard stop to the point where you reach the 2-3" wide white painted line can put you down at a stop light. For the most part, I know I'm living in a cager's world, therefore, it is up to me to be up on my game and cognizant of the conditions and ride to ride another day. Again, thanks for the encouragement to contact my government to lobby for improvements of our roadways for the safety of ALL who travel them.
Edited by varyder 2013-06-03 7:23 AM
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Cruiser
Posts: 160
Camas Washington | Another bunch of BS about E3s. Saturday ride in the Columbia Gorge there is about a 12 mile stretch on Hwy 14 that is loaded with tar snakes. I was the only Victory among 5 HDs. When we stopped for lunch after the snakes everyone was bit wheezy from them. We started on the tire talk, I have the E3s, there were Avons and Metzs on the other bikes. Bottom line none of the tires could deal with them very well. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 804
Perry Hall, MD | Hey Bones, thanks for providing a lot of the background that can only come from someone in the business. Surprisingly today I was looking through a government technology magazine and saw an article related to the subject. Testing was recently completed on an automated piece of equipment which will make these repairs to a 12' wide lane while moving at 3 mph. What the article didn't discuss was everything else that Bones shared. Hopefully the developers had someone like him consulting on the actual manner in which the repairs should be made to be MC friendly.
In the end it is the driver who needs to be aware and take the greatest responsibility for dealing with these slippery demons.
Edited by lennyb 2013-06-03 8:41 PM
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Tourer
Posts: 573
Central Illinois | A nice driving day for me in good weather means no trouble from tar snakes here in Illinois on roads that I frequent. On the other hand I was recently out riding shortly after a rain on a very familiar road and my Vision was dancing pretty badly around on the tar snakes. As Bones indicated, it felt like riding a badly rain grooved road. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 162
Extreme Southern, AZ United States | AZ is going to a high particulate tar for road repair |
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Darn Tar Snakes
