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Visionary
Posts: 3006
San Antonio, TX | "Here's how my brain works: It's stupidity, followed by self hatred, and then further analysis. It's not a very efficient system of thought. I have these dumb thoughts and go 'derrrr' and then I go 'WHAT THE &%#*! IS WRONG WITH YOU!' And then I figure it out." - Louis C.K
My brain works in much the same way.
The Twelve Steps for Front Brake Avoidance Anonymous
1. We admitted we should use our Front Brake and know that we regularly do not.
2. Came to believe, after skidding sideways with the rear time locked up, that the power to stop is greater when using the proper application of the Front and Rear brakes!
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the proper application of the braking systems on your ride.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of our riding techniques.
5. Admitted to everyone the exact nature of our wrongs when riding.
6. Were entirely ready to practice as much as required to remove all these defects of riding.
7. Practice proper techniques to remove our shortcomings. Repeat as required.
8. Inspect the tires and braking system on your ride every ride.
9. If you ride is deficient in any way, repair it immediately.
10. Continue to review your riding on every ride. Repeat steps 6 and 7 as necessary.
11. Ride within your own limits.
12. Having had an awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to others that do not use proper braking techniques, and to practice these techniques every ride.
Hello everyone, my name is Paul and I do not use the front brake as often as I should!
Ride Safe
Edited by radioteacher 2012-03-14 2:04 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | Sorry to hear that Paul. I'm a habitual front brake user and replace my front pad many more times than my rear and I'm on thin front rotor as well. I was a habit I acquired when I first took up riding on my CB750 Custom with real independant braking, which knowing how to engage both brakes saved me more than once. If it is any consolation though, I did put 'er down one-time. I agree to other points, I think....
Edited by varyder 2012-03-14 2:41 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 3006
San Antonio, TX | varyder,
Good for you! I have got to make using the front brake automatic.
Monday I was riding the Vision to lunch with a coworker on a Yamaha Morphous. I was riding as the lead of the two bikes headed for Chicken Wings...mmmmm. (no offense pollolittle) Until this last turn I was moving right along on clean and dry pavement.
As I approach the last turn I see the road is wet. I point out the danger to the rider behind and apply brakes....just the rear brakes. As the Vision transitioned to the wet pavement the rear tire locked up. Crap. So I ride it out thinking "Where is John? (the rider behind me)" He saw the issue and moved over to my left and passed me by headed for the next right turn. He is a smart guy. I let off the rear brake, passed my turn and followed him to the next right.
When we stopped at Wing Stop we discussed the incident.
I was riding to fast into the curve. I should have slowed down and not used just the rear brake. At a minimum I should have passed the turn.
He was impressed how I could slide around with that 850 pound machine and not go down. I said "Yea, me too".
"It's stupidity, followed by self hatred, and then further analysis. I have these dumb thoughts and go 'derrrr' and then I go 'WHAT THE &%#*! IS WRONG WITH YOU!' And then I figure it out."
Ride Safer then me.
Edited by radioteacher 2012-03-14 3:23 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 2027
Brighton, TN | Eat my fellow brethren, you heathens!!!! However, a good dose of favorite topping uponst the chicken wing and wa-la a tasty treat loved by all. I hear screaming and kicking but so long as they go before I do, I should have about 8 lives left.
Now, on to your dirt bike maneuvers. I enjoy a good sideways kick coming out of my gravel driveway, just like riding a dirt bike. I kick the rear end around so much that I think I do it intentionally every time.
Good points to remember, I use them both everytime all the time, brakes that is. So much so, that when the front is wore down the rear is too. It is a good suggestion to remember. I know a guy that only uses his front brake, cause that's what he was told. Since I've known him in 5 years he has laid it down 3 times and talking to him never touch the rear. Except for the last time, he said he was thinking about what I had told him about using the rear brake. He decided to use as he was going over a piece of road that was torn up and filled with gravel. I can only imagine big heavy foot, locked up the back brake and started sliding, he panicked and into the ditch he went. Broke a few bones. |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| For years I told harley riders there going down if they use the rear brake. Well a friend crash bad he hit the rear brake and it locks right up and put him in a bad bad slid.
Thank God we have liked brakes.
I crashed by Bicycle last summer cause the right one does the rear bake and it was not enough to stop my fat ass.
Put a stick on your dash telling you front first and rear last. Cause of car driving habits we use rear then front.
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Cruiser
Posts: 51
Edmonton AB, Canada | Just take it easy as you squeeze both brakes with the bike upright and you'll be ok. If you pull on the front too quickly your front tire will break traction before its had a chance to be compressed onto the road by the forks. Only using the rear break will take to long to stop the bike in an emergency. Practicing when it's safe will keep you tuned up for when you need to stop in a hurry. |
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Visionary
Posts: 3006
San Antonio, TX | On the way home tonight I had plenty of room behind me when the light turned red. I used the proper application of front and rear brakes to haul the Vision down in a hurry. Ahh, what a difference.
Ride Safe |
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Visionary
Posts: 2027
Brighton, TN | Are you sure proper application? I doubt seriously you are using the Brake O meter. Only certified riders can use it accurately. |
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Tourer
Posts: 390
| After taking the Ride like a Pro course, I find that the rear brake is is the first thing applied. Having linked brakes does have advantages but in a oh-sh.t moment will I grab for the front brake? Only time will tell. Rain riding is one thing but those suddenly wet/muddy patches of pavement will always be a test of reflexes and skill. I will always take the rear tire slide over the front tire slide .
Po'....serial #699...a little past evil...why have I never noticed that before...lol
Edited by chesshiretuna 2012-03-15 8:03 AM
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Visionary
Posts: 2027
Brighton, TN | That's a good question never thought about it till just now. Makes one wonder. I agree with your apprlication of brakes chesshiretuna, that's the way I roll. |
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Tourer
Posts: 337
san antonio, tx | Just glad you made it through, Paul!
Not to pick on Pollolittle, but I'm Pollogrande when it comes to wet pavement. Having went down on a turn, on the on ramp to the interstate, without applying any brake makes me a bit timid now, I guess. There was a wet spot on the pavement and I didn't give it much of a thought until I was down, sliding, spinning and tumbling along. Wasn't even going excessively fast either. |
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Visionary
Posts: 2027
Brighton, TN | Cchristo, I've heard that one too. Let the sea stories begin.
What's the difference between a fairy tale and a sea story. Fairy tale starts out, Once upon a time........
Sea story starts out, This here is a no $hitter........
Just kidding, glad you made it! |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | cchristo - 2012-03-15 9:42 PM Just glad you made it through, Paul! Not to pick on Pollolittle, but I'm Pollogrande when it comes to wet pavement. Having went down on a turn, on the on ramp to the interstate, without applying any brake makes me a bit timid now, I guess. There was a wet spot on the pavement and I didn't give it much of a thought until I was down, sliding, spinning and tumbling along. Wasn't even going excessively fast either. Oh, my fear...and I've never put 'er down, wet or dry (the Vision). I'm timid on wet turns, not because of the water, but because of the water and chemicals, sand, dirt, etc. I've felt the tail slip on these wet turns, so I'm timid in the turns when it rains. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 45
Ventura County, CA | Take a v-rod out for a ride, you will quickly learn to use your front brakes  Coming from this bike over to the Vision, I still forget that we have rear brakes as I cannot remember the last time I ever used them on the V-rod. I did almost 80-90% of my braking with the front. I guess that is why I feel the stopping distance of the Victory stinks. The front brakes just don't work that great. I have just changed out the pads, replaced the fluid and bled the front and rear. Better, but still not where I could rely safely stopping the bike in an emergency. So while all of you are learning to use the front, I need to learn to use the rear more. |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | In a safe area, a parking lot on the weekends, test out your brakes. I've locked up mine at least once just messing around and feel confident that the Vision will stop quickly. A V-rod and a Vision are two entirely different bikes weight wise. 200-300 lbs makes a big difference on a motorcycle. Braking and avoidance is something that all motorcyclist must be masters at, but I'm afraid only about 20% really are, even long time riders. I constantly remind myself that the miles behind have nothing to do with the miles ahead and make myself remain vigilent and proficient. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 741
Central New York | Being I'm still riding an old 2008, I'm curious, how do them new newfangled ABS brakes fit into this discussion? |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | In my opinion, and mine only, it doesn't. Not being anti-abs, I really don't have a desire for them. A thought came to me yesterday, if I get the modern Vision I'll just take off the clicker that makes the abs work, and then it would be back to the regular braking mode. But personally, again, I can't see how ABS in this discussion bares relavence seeing there is no retrofit to the 2008's to install. If Paul was riding something with ABS I would wonder what difference it would make in the exact same situation...that is a good question. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | I saw a new 2012 Vision at my dealer's last weekend. It has ABS. The right side saddlebag door only opened about half as far as my 2008, and only about half as far as the left side saddlebag door on the 2012. When I asked about it, the salesman said the ABS unit takes up the space the hinges need to open fully. Don't know if he knew what he was talking about or if the door just needed some kind of adjustment, but the door definitely didn't open far enough. I don't like ABS in the first place and that problem with the door would be a deal killer for me.
The point made about the V-Rod stopping faster than a Vision because of the weight difference is a valid one. My Sport Cruiser feels like it stops faster than my Vision, but that is because it's 200 pounds lighter. Kinetic energy and all that.
Ronnie |
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Tourer
Posts: 337
san antonio, tx | pollolittle - 2012-03-15 8:49 PM
Cchristo, I've heard that one too. Let the sea stories begin.
What's the difference between a fairy tale and a sea story. Fairy tale starts out, Once upon a time........
Sea story starts out, This here is a no $hitter........
Just kidding, glad you made it!
Speaking of "no $hit" stories, it turned out that what I slid in was exactly the opposite. A septic tank vacuum truck had evidently not closed its dump hatch and it's contents sloshed out when it took the corner. No $hit, true story! |
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Visionary
Posts: 2027
Brighton, TN | Yep, I remember you posting that. Ouch or should I say shoooeeeee! Can't say that I could have figured that one out either! Well lets just hope you have it out of your system and you only get that once in a lifetime ride! |
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Tourer
Posts: 337
san antonio, tx | glighto11 - 2012-03-16 11:25 AM
Being I'm still riding an old 2008, I'm curious, how do them new newfangled ABS brakes fit into this discussion?
I think it would have made the story much less exciting.
I was made a believer of ABS once.
The thing about properly functioning ABS is that you don't ever notice them until they are needed.
They still allow you to utilize threshold braking right up to the limit.
They only kick in when the sensors notice that the wheel has stopped spinning. If you are doing perfect threshold braking (and I don't know many who can routinely do this in an emergency situation), you will be bringing the wheel to the point just before it loses traction and stops spinning. The ABS shouldn't kick in at any time while you are threshold braking, only after you've crossed that threshold.
Well, at that point, it turns out that you aren't as good at threshold braking as you thought you were, and the ABS kicks in by releasing just enough brake pressure to allow the tire to begin spinning again. The instant that the system senses that the tire is spinning again, it closes the valve and allows as much pressure to the pads as you are putting on them. It repeats this cycle many times per second, much faster than you will ever be able to make happen with your hand or foot.
So, cchristo, if they are so darned good, why doesn't AMA, NASCAR, INDY, and all the other racing organizations use them?
Well, I don't know, exactly. If I were to guess though, here are a couple.
It's one thing to use threshold braking when you are approaching a known corner, and know pretty much exactly where you need to start applying the brakes to get down to a manageable speed. It's another thing when a deer or a car suddenly pop out in front of you at night on a wet road.
Have you ever noticed how straight and somewhat predictable a NASCAR vehicle is when it's brakes are locked up? Sort of like a cue ball on a pool table, arent they? Once they get sideways, it's usually best to keep the brakes locked up and let momentum and physics determine where the car is going to go. If you're behind an out of control car, and the driver is trying to do all kinds of crazy wheel and brake maneuvers, you don't have any idea where that car is going to be in the next split second.
Another might be that they just want to keep as much of that sort of technology out of it for some reason or another.
The attached picture is me putting threshold braking to use. A few laps later, I found out that I'm just not up to perfect threshold braking, everytime, without exception. It resulted in a pretty scary off-track excursion and my car being brought home on a flatbed wrecker.
(WSIR1 small.jpg)
Attachments
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 WSIR1 small.jpg (79KB - 0 downloads)
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Visionary
Posts: 2027
Brighton, TN | Now we're just bragging with a nice Vette to boot. I agree seems the technology is there for ABS and having used them, I like them. Wouldn't have bothered me a bit to have been on my 08. |
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Tourer
Posts: 337
san antonio, tx | pollolittle - 2012-03-16 9:31 PM
Now we're just bragging with a nice Vette to boot. I agree seems the technology is there for ABS and having used them, I like them. Wouldn't have bothered me a bit to have been on my 08.
Sorry, didn't mean to come across that way. Just trying to reinforce my opinion on ABS based on my experience.
It was a fun car though! I used to live near Willow Springs Raceway and got on it every chance I got! |
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Visionary
Posts: 2027
Brighton, TN | Cchristo, I'm just ribbing you, bragg on, I love a good story. I may be a little envious never owned a Vette or raced the quarter mile or a road course. Would love to do both. Would like to hear more bragging about that vette on the back of a wrecker.
Like you said the story would be less entertaining. Spruce it up a little, sounds better than, "I JUST SLID IN SOME POO." |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 8
Dayton, Ohio | Thatis braking the Bill W way. lol because I got it. |
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Front Brake Avoidance Anonymous
