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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 45
Ventura County, CA | Last week I installed Lloyds Cams and a PC-V. I also installed fresh plugs as well. After putting a 150 mile test run on the Cams, they are awesome. But, when I pulled the plugs, the electrode were white. The bike is running great except for a occasional single backfire when downshifting. I have taken all of the "0%" trims down to "0" Only 750 RPM's had a "5" in it. This really did not do anything. This is Lloyds map that he provided me for this install.
My question is due to this possible lean then rich condition as seen in the photos, would this be an easy fix with the map, or would I be better off picking up an autotune module? Has anyone ever seen an increase in performance or mileage after installing one of these on an already almost perfect map? I spoke to DynoJet and they warned me that the autotune could in fact "ruin" a good map. There suggestion was that if I do decide to do anything with this, that I take it to a good dynojet tuner and have it professionally tuned. Has anyone ever done both? Any differences? I have used my local dynojet for my v-rod and was not to happy with the results. I have not installed an autotune on this yet as I ended up going with the PowerVision that does not really work full time with it.
I just want to make sure that I am not hurting the bike with this somewhat lean condition.
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Cruiser
Posts: 69
AZ | I recommend finding a reputable dyno tuner/shop and pay them to do one to three runs. Not only would you know for sure what your HP/TQ was you would also see a graph of your AFR. Then armed with this info you can decide what you want to do from there.
regards. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 880
Orlando, FL | .
Edited by MaddMAx2u 2012-03-12 7:25 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/tech_support/spark_plugs/faqs/faqread.... |
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Cruiser
Posts: 58
San Clemente | Have you talked to Lloyd? One thing you could do if you go the Auto Tune route is save Lloyds map then tune that map and see what you get. |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| Keep in mind we don't read plugs like we use to with no lead in the gas.
You have to look down inside the spark plug for true reading. http://www.ebay.com/itm/B-B-30520-Spark-Plug-Light-Pen-Style-/40028...
To me you look rich. Take the bike out for a day od riding and then check millage |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | john frey - 2012-03-13 5:25 PM
Keep in mind we don't read plugs like we use to with no lead in the gas.
You have to look down inside the spark plug for true reading. http://www.ebay.com/itm/B-B-30520-Spark-Plug-Light-Pen-Style-/40028...
To me you look rich. Take the bike out for a day od riding and then check millage
that sparkplug reading link i posted was from the Maker of our OEM plugs... how many years has Lead been out of our fuel now? (i honestly dont know). |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 45
Ventura County, CA | Well I ended up picking up an autotune anyway. This in itself has been a nightmare. The factory forgot to put anti seize on the threads. Needless to say, I ended up striping out the rear O2 sensor. Luckily, I was able to retap it without having to pull the entire exhaust system. Got it all together and running, but now the autotune module is not being seen by the PCV or software. One more thing to deal with today. I will contact Dynojet as the CAN termination plug is plugged in and connected. I cannot find any other thing wrong with the install. Hopefully, they can shed some light on this. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 58
San Clemente | Up date your firm ware. This seems to be a common problem. |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| Lead went away about 20 years ago. Yes back then if you look at a plug it was nice and tan.
Now day with cheap gas we get white and black.
If you have a late model car or truck pull one of those plugs and compare. There usually right on. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 45
Ventura County, CA | Dynojet told me to do this and I did. Guess what, it works great now. Thanks.... |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | i would love to see your plug after you ride for a bit with the PCV-AUTO TUNE |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 45
Ventura County, CA | Went for a ride tonight with the AutoTune running. My bike used to backfire occasionally. Now it is doing it almost all the time when downshifting. I checked the trim table after about one hour of riding and all were negative numbers. Between -8 and -18 throughout. I accepted the trims and will see how she runs the next time I get to ride. The bike was obviously running quite rich and not lean like I thought.
Edited by wrk24wheel 2012-03-14 9:58 PM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 612
| wrk24wheel - 2012-03-14 6:55 PM
Dynojet told me to do this and I did. Guess what, it works great now. Thanks....
Just curious, Dynojet told you to do .. what exactly?
And... just a couple of tips for tuning..... there is an option to combine the AFR tables into a single AFR table, since there really is no need to maintain separate AFR's for each cylinder.
Also, try zeroing out your 0% and 2% columns, both in the AFR table and the main fuel table, then just set your idle AFR to 13.2 (0% at 750-1250rpm) only. I think the Autotune tries to lean out the 0% and 2% columns too much because most of the time spent there is decelerating. There are different fuel requirements when decelerating through an rpm range vs. accelerating through the same rpm range.
Hope this helps. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 58
San Clemente | What is the target AFR of the map your tuning and how does that compare to Lloyds? There should be no target AFR in the 0 and 2% columns. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 45
Ventura County, CA | Turk - 2012-03-15 6:03 AM
wrk24wheel - 2012-03-14 6:55 PM
Dynojet told me to do this and I did. Guess what, it works great now. Thanks....
Just curious, Dynojet told you to do .. what exactly?
And... just a couple of tips for tuning..... there is an option to combine the AFR tables into a single AFR table, since there really is no need to maintain separate AFR's for each cylinder.
Also, try zeroing out your 0% and 2% columns, both in the AFR table and the main fuel table, then just set your idle AFR to 13.2 (0% at 750-1250rpm) only. I think the Autotune tries to lean out the 0% and 2% columns too much because most of the time spent there is decelerating. There are different fuel requirements when decelerating through an rpm range vs. accelerating through the same rpm range.
Hope this helps.
Dynojet told me to reinstall the firmware. They said that even though it looks like it completed, it probably did not. This is a common issue according the the tech. Sure enough, updating the firmware for the third time worked. |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 45
Ventura County, CA | mackgoo - 2012-03-15 12:49 PM
What is the target AFR of the map your tuning and how does that compare to Lloyds? There should be no target AFR in the 0 and 2% columns.
I am using Lloyds map as a starting point. the 0% had one setting, but 2% is full (13.2) almost all the way. I will go ahead and zero these out to give it a try. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 58
San Clemente | I was wrong there should be targets in the 2%. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 612
| mackgoo - 2012-03-15 10:17 PM
I was wrong there should be targets in the 2%.
"Should be" is not really the case. This is very subjective. It is true that many of the maps come with values in the 2% column, but that certainly doesn't mean they "Should be" there. I had targets there until just recently, and the PC set them a little lean. I like the throttle response better when I remove the target AFR's and zero out the fuel in the 2% column. Can't hurt to experiment! And that's what I do.... a lot!
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Iron Butt
Posts: 612
| wrk24wheel - 2012-03-15 9:12 PM
mackgoo - 2012-03-15 12:49 PM
What is the target AFR of the map your tuning and how does that compare to Lloyds? There should be no target AFR in the 0 and 2% columns.
I am using Lloyds map as a starting point. the 0% had one setting, but 2% is full (13.2) almost all the way. I will go ahead and zero these out to give it a try.
Remember that just clearing the target AFR's in a column or cell does not zero the fuel value already set in the map. You need to do that also.
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 45
Ventura County, CA | What about removing the fuel tables in 2%. but leaving the AFR tables there. The AT would then have to trim real time for that instead of always running it lean. Then depending on the altitude and temp, it could adjust from there. Am I wrong on this one? Or would this be close to the same as accepting the trim into the map? |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 612
| wrk24wheel - 2012-03-16 8:26 AM
What about removing the fuel tables in 2%. but leaving the AFR tables there. The AT would then have to trim real time for that instead of always running it lean. Then depending on the altitude and temp, it could adjust from there. Am I wrong on this one? Or would this be close to the same as accepting the trim into the map?
Would be the same as accepting the trim into the map. The final "live" map is the combination of the PC-V fuel map AND the trim table. If you leave an AFR target there, then there will be trim values, which will probably be a tad lean. I've also discovered that "popping" can be affected greatly by the 2% column in addition to the 0% column. I believe the popping is actually a result of too much fuel in the 2% column, getting burned off when it suddenly goes lean at closed throttle. But, as I said, I think my throttle response below 2k rpm, especially coming off stop lights, is much improved letting the ECM fueling have the 2% column instead of the PC leaning it out, as mine does.
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Cruiser
Posts: 58
San Clemente | Lloyd has a nice write up on backfiring. One of the main contributers is exhaust leaks. Considering the issues you had with your Auto Tune install you may want to look at your exhaust for the increased popping.
I'm interested in hearing what Lloyd has to say about the "lean" condition seeing it's his map. |
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PC-V and Running Lean
