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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | Any chance of a product like this being made for Victory's? Or is this just a HD thing.. Id love to have this.
http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander_hd/powercommander_v_in... |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 935
Rockford, IL |
Through a friend I have a bit of an "inside track" on information regarding this. As far as a release date for the Vision they are saying "very soon". So the dilema is how do we define "very soon"? Well...based on previous history of what Power Commander has done I'm being told that this "very soon" can be as soon as 3 weeks to as much as 3 months....give or take a day or two or more.
When it is initially released it will be for 09 models only. So the next part of what I'm trying to figure out is if the ECM is the same for the 08 or not. Or if they are possibly different...how different are they? And will any of the differences not allow the Power Commander to work or not? I'm thinking that any differences will NOT matter at all, hopefully. I'm waiting for this unit to come out and then I'm going to install Lloydz cams. |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | wow thanks for the info, i must saying im a little depressed to hear its for 09 models only. it does make you wonder what is difference between 08 and 09. it was the sameway with my vulcan 2000, the first year model had a different ecu and ran a little richer than the 05 models. there was also a timing difference too. In the vulcan world people with the 04 were considered the lucky ones because of the extra power they would get from the ecu. I doubt it is the same with the vision. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1350
| This is the only place to go.
http://www.quickvic-usa.com/vision.shtml
Lloyd is the best. |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | yeah but Lloyd unit needs YOU to do all the work.. the powercommander V does it all for you.. NO dyno's for tuning your air fuel ratio, NO paying someone else to tune your bike every time you add another mod to your bike. (that is if you want it properly tuned and not just close enough) This PC-V uses O2 sensors to determine the A/F and then tunes it for you based on the read outs. dont Lloyds unit require you to disable the o2 sensors? if this is so ( i could be wrong) then its not a automatic tuner at all! In my opinion they are apples to oranges.. two completely different worlds. Lloyds unit is probably great. but requires you to tune it. Read about what the PC-V does. its the next step in 21 century mods to your motorcycle! |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 810
| FWIW, this is the current PowerCommander part number for the 2008 Visions. If you drive out to Las Vegas, PowerCommander will make a custom map for your bike's specific configuration. They are building up their map library. Ness in Vegas has been installing these and then having PowerCommander in Las Vegas generate the custom maps. Arizona Victory has also been installing these. I do not believe it is the Version 5 that you referenced.
Victory Vision Part # 938-411 HTH, Tim
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | thats very cool. but this newest powercommander you dont need to upload maps. it reads the sensors and then adjusts accordingly. like say if you have a "map" for the PCIII and it is for a stage1 level 1 pipe with k&n air filter. then you all the sudden get that Lloyds thing that goes where the air filter is. now you would need another map or at least to adjust the one you already have.. but either way it is up to You to make the corrections. where as this newer PC V sees the differences from the sensors and adjusts it automatically. im sure this device will come with a serious price tag! but i think its nice to had a "smart" device. One where you can make changes and it will see the increase in air and adjust accordingly. Thats like a dream come true.. The way it should be. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1117
Northeast Ohio | PC-V is only available for 2009 HDs. You are kind of barking up the wrong tree here. I think all of us would welcome the device, but it simply doesn't exist for us and probably won't for a while. You need to ask yourself a few questions:
1. How many mods do you plan on doing? If you can afford the mods, you can afford the $100 tune. I have worked with auto-tune EMS (http://www.hydraems.com/nemesis/nemesis/nemesis_hardware.html) and currently have one of these in my 650HP Subaru STi. It helps, but will never replace a custom tune. Depending if they use VW or Bosch wideband O2 sensors, you are looking at $50-$150 a pop when they go. Nothing is ever set it an forget it, unless you keep it stock and let the warranty pick it up.
2. Do you really want to spend close to $800 for engine management on a bike? For $269 you get a box that is more than capable for what we need and you still have ~$500 left in the bank.
If you really have to have one, then you'll have to go HD for now. DynoJet won't release one of these for a while as they are targeting their biggest audience. They will then probably move to metrics.
Here is a link to the PC-V (http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander_hd/default.aspx) The PC-V is $370 and the autotune module is ANOTHER $370. I chose the touring bike for these numbers and I am rounding up by a few nickels.
TimS and I have had a few PMs about PowerCommanders and judgng by his signature, I am assuming he doesn't feel even switching to a PC-III is worth it over the VFC III.
This post certainly wasn't meant to be a flame, but for less money you could get a lot better.
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | iguess you didnt read Power commander is making one for the vision.. I NEVER said it was cheap. But neither is the vision. yes the regular PCIII is "enough" for anyone doing mods. but the Point of the powercommander V is to Not be close enough. its to be dead on. and you meantioned the prices. have you added the Price of a dynotune if you want a right on mixture for whatever other device you buy? i had a friend spend $280 to have his power commander 3 tuned, ontop of $339 for the device itself. and that map is Only good for that Exact setup... meaning if he changes that setup to better flowing intake now he needs another map (IF) he wants a (dead on) A/F ratio. if you dont dyno tune your guessing and getting what "feels" right.
was it on here where someone already bought one of them Lloyd units only to find it there needed to be a updated model? or was it for the cams? it needed more fuel than it could handle. i could be wrong... but i thoguht i remembered reading that on here..... hell if someone is only going to add some pipes and k&n air filter you might as well just use the victory map. but what if you want to slowly over time add more and more stuff? intake plate, cams, maybe even other mods like how people punch holes in their own pipes. Who will have the proper setting for things you add or do that is NOT sold but the person that made the fuel device you bought?
Edited by Arkainzeye 2009-01-06 8:54 AM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1117
Northeast Ohio | I read it. I just know that our market is significantly smaller than 'other' manufacturers and I also know what "very soon' means to these companies. I waited 'very soon' for AEM to release their stand-alone EMS for my Subaru for 2 years before I gave up and bought my Hydra. Do you really trust a device to auto-tune your $20K+ bike? Arkainzeye, I am NOT digging on you, I hope you know that. I am just giving an objective viewpoint.
Another problem we have is that there just isn't anyone else but Lloyd making the go fast goodies for us (that's not a bad thing). I was able to email Lloyd and at 10PM at night he gave me baseline settings for my setup (fortunately I know what lean and fat settings feel like). A shop up the street would check my AFRs for $50 and make adjustments for $50 an hour. I also think KevinX and Lloyd tune at most big bike events for a similar price.
Would I buy one, yes. But I would let it auto-tune on a dyno as I just don't trust a device to make adjustments for me on the fly. |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | scorebo i respect your opinion. dont worry i didnt take it as you digging on me. i have thick skin. I love debating back and forth, thats how you learn something new! And i love to learn something new!! I think the Powercommander is a nice step forward in the future of motorcycle tuning. But for me, its probably overkill as im not looking for insane power. if i was i wouldnt own a vision. i came from a 125ci vulcan. now that was power. so for me my vision needs a nice SOUND and nice MPG... hey i see your from NE ohio! im from SW, pa. just under pittsburgh. you going to that cleveland motorcycle show in a few weeks? |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 725
Reno County, KS | I'm now torn between the two. I would be willing to wait for the PCV since I'm waiting for other parts before I can ride, it's not a big deal for me. I respect Lloyd and his work. I think we have a lot in common and I've never seen any vendor show up to a thread to answer questions about his own product on the forums before Lloyd. Compare Lloyd's posts to the usual vendor hit-and-runs where they show up to plug their product for free advertising and then are never heard from again. We've seen those types on this site a few times. Then there's the blog that Lloyd makes time to write and teach us valuable info with. I never knew anything about A/F ratios and wideband O2 sensors before Lloyd took the time to explain it in simple terms. Go to Power Commander's site and look at the product breakdown and explaination of how it works... Oh wait, it doesn't exist. Lloyd expects his customer base to make the effort to take control of what they're doing with their bike. It's not convenient in some ways but once you understand what's going on with programming his fuel controller, you're not going to depend on a flash or someone else to tell you that you're tearing up your engine. I like the idea of a power commander that is truely plug and play (make no mistake about it, it's going to cost $$$ when you read between the lines of what's required to truely make this thing autonomous). I don't trust it so much so I'll watch and wait. Maybe I'll buy a VFCIII in the mean time. I don't mind the learning curve prerequisite. I dunno *shrug*. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 102
Madison, AL | Well, I took my bike in today to get the cams I ordered from Lloyd installed. The mechanic, who also owns a Vision, suggested I replace the VFC with a dynojet powercommander since it provided more tuning options. The bike will be dynoed after the cams are installed. I have the intake mod and stage 1 exhaust upgrade. I'm not looking for outrageous horsepower just more low end torque. So, if anyone is looking to try out the Lloyd VFC it will be available soon at a sale price. I liked the VFC since I allowed me to adjust the A/F and have no real complaints or problems with it. |
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Tourer
Posts: 394
Tucson, AZ | Apparently they must be available. Got an email from the local dealer here in Tucson and they advertising them. Didn't say if they for any specific year. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1117
Northeast Ohio | Gray Rider, PC 5 or 3? Also, there isn't one that is a direct fit for the Vision. The part number TimS gave works, but if you look at the install instructions, it appears to be generic Victory 100CI version.
It would be great if we could get the pin-out on the HD version of the PC5 and make a harness to adapt to ours. |
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Tourer
Posts: 394
Tucson, AZ | I think it's just a generic model. Probably not for a Vision. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 77
| Good Thread, Good Debate.
PC V has had a total recall on it, the staff that worked on the pre-production units has left and only a couple of new people are there finishing up the needed software changes. As far as a unit for Victory, I'm sure not soon. A current PC lll will work on a Vision there isn't any issues there. I also use Pc's when needed. I can say that you won't be able to beat the power and throttle response of the VFC compared to a PC lll in stage 1 trim or with my cams. That's been tested! I'm not apposed to power commander for the right application and I know some of you might think I am because "it doesn't have my name on it" If that's the way you think then I can say with some certainty that you are NEW to Victory and just wing up your own assumptions. I was involved back in 2000 with Paul Langley (then V.P. of Dynojet) to wrap up on the PC ll for 99-01 Victory so I am familure with the product. The PC V will NOT be the saving grace of tuning like some of YOU think, nor is mine, I think were along way from those types of units. Self-Adjust or Auto tune is allot of hype when based on a 2 dimensional tuning device. It won't be that or even close. As Scorebo said you can't beat a custom tune!
The units I have to offer work superior when fitted to the correct application, no we don't currently remove fuel but then again in stage 1 and with my cams we don't need to.
The differences between VFC and PC lll are many, when shopping be knowledgeable in your decisions and choose wisely and not solely based on marketing. What do I mean by that? Here's a question. Who are the two founders of Dynojet and Dobeck Performance?
(Dynojet makes the PC and Dobeck makes the VFC I offer)
Those that may know that immediately please don't answer it on this topic. I want those that don't to dig in and do alittle research, you know, the kind of research you do when purchasing a product for your bike. Yes there is a catch in that question.
VFC lll can be hooked to a wide band sensor and have "Auto-Tune". I tested those for 6 months and I won't sell it because it doesn't work like it should. Now that's not to say that in the near future we won't have a unit that does but it won't be for sale until it works correctly.
Heres my take on how I want my customers. I WANT my customers to be a smarter consumer! I'm there to make them that and if it's giving them a device that THEY need to adjust slightly, to learn and feel the changes their bike makes, while giving the experience of working on and with their own machine, then I've succeeded. Now some of you may not like what I have to offer and that's ok everyone has their own opinion, those people that are my customers are more knowledgeable and experience their bikes with a better understanding.
Damn this must have been a good finger night to type this long.
Lloyd
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Cruiser
Posts: 170
Houston, TX | We ALWAYS apreciate your input Lloyd.
Thanks
Edited by elvis441 2009-01-08 9:14 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | Gotta respect that! |
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Cruiser
Posts: 77
| Arkainzeye - 2009-01-08 9:41 PM
Gotta respect that!
Arkainzeye, Others
If you have any questions on a choice let me know, I'll give you the hard facts of any performance product out there, I may sell you something I may not but in the end you'll get the right answers and I'll earn your respect. I never worry about a lost sale, maybe I lose a sale to a PC but 6 months down the road I'm gonna sell you a set of cams or motor job. ( I still have bills to pay too)
Lloyd |
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New user
Posts: 1
| Hi everyone. I was looking for information on the Vision and came across this thread and felt the need to reply.
The PCV has NOT had a widespread recall, in fact the unit is working extremely well. The engineers that left Dynojet a few years ago had nothing to do with the development of PCV. Our head engineer in Montana designed and developed this unit himself and is extremely proud of it. Mark Dobeck did start Dynojet and left well before the first Power Commander was ever developed.
We are currently shipping all Harley models and a few sportbikes. Several other metric units will be released this month. We just looked at the 09 Hammer and should be able to release this unit first of February. At this time we have not looked at the Vision specifically for development. The reason we never released part #938-411 for the Vision was due to the install. We never really liked where the unit had to be mounted on the Vision and we didn't think we would sell enough to warrant a new harness. We have sold quite a few and the local Victory dealer loves them so we will release a PCV for this bike. Once part #19-002 is released you can use it on the Vision until we have a specific unit (they will be the same just different instructions).
I am not here to bash anyone else's products, if it works for you go with it. We believe our unit is superior to others due to the tuning capabilities and accessories it offers. You also need to ask yourself how a unit claims to be load based and not be connected to the Throttle Position sensor or MAP sensor? Going off of pulse width alone is not the proper way of doing this as other products do.
I just wanted everyone to have the facts. Take this info and do as you wish. If you have any questions please feel free to contact our tech line. Thanks. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 77
| Dynojet - 2009-01-09 2:25 PM
Hi everyone. I was looking for information on the Vision and came across this thread and felt the need to reply.
The PCV has NOT had a widespread recall, in fact the unit is working extremely well. The engineers that left Dynojet a few years ago had nothing to do with the development of PCV. Our head engineer in Montana designed and developed this unit himself and is extremely proud of it. Mark Dobeck did start Dynojet and left well before the first Power Commander was ever developed.
We are currently shipping all Harley models and a few sportbikes. Several other metric units will be released this month. We just looked at the 09 Hammer and should be able to release this unit first of February. At this time we have not looked at the Vision specifically for development. The reason we never released part #938-411 for the Vision was due to the install. We never really liked where the unit had to be mounted on the Vision and we didn't think we would sell enough to warrant a new harness. We have sold quite a few and the local Victory dealer loves them so we will release a PCV for this bike. Once part #19-002 is released you can use it on the Vision until we have a specific unit (they will be the same just different instructions).
I am not here to bash anyone else's products, if it works for you go with it. We believe our unit is superior to others due to the tuning capabilities and accessories it offers. You also need to ask yourself how a unit claims to be load based and not be connected to the Throttle Position sensor or MAP sensor? Going off of pulse width alone is not the proper way of doing this as other products do.
I just wanted everyone to have the facts. Take this info and do as you wish. If you have any questions please feel free to contact our tech line. Thanks.
Welcome Aboard Dynojet
You don't have an e-mail box set up so I can't send it by that means, I'm glad your still there, I've tried to get a hold of you recently however the channels over there seem to be getting blocked.
I knew my prior post would end up in your lap and it's intent was to open up communication. My number is 845-744-4889, give me a call Monday if you would, there are some items I'd like to discuss. You can also e-mail me back at lloydz@frontiernet.net but as far as this topic is concerned for me it's ended on the public level and I'd like to keep our correspondence private.
Lloyd
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Power Commander V
