Craig and I put on about 2200 miles Thursday-Sunday going to North Carolina. Anyway, I not only found it easy to scrap my boards, but I also did a lot of scraping of my tip-over protectors. What I found out is that the rear tip-over protectors hit first. If you keep trying to turn, it will lift weight off the rear wheel and the bike will slide out. It's a little scary so just don't try to turn the bike even more when the tip-over protectors are scraping. Fortunately, the scraped metal is on the bottom and not visible. It's good to know the limits of the bike. I also did a video of the Dragon which I'll post shortly.

sandman - 2008-05-20 6:53 AM Fergy how fast were you going? I've taken ramps at 65mph without touching down. your bike must be at about 120degree's.

I've scrapped on the on-ramp several times doing around 55-60 with no problem. I was even coming around one the other day and I though to myself, why ain't it scrapping and then I felt a nick, I was right at that line that probably a piece of paper wouldn't get between. Fergie, Thanks for letting us know about the tip overs, I dug in on the floor boards but not touched the tip overs yet, that I know. The only time I've laid a bike down, it was on my CB750 Custom in a hard left turn, hit a dip and the center stand arm hit and the rear tire kicked out. I've been skiddish since about a hard lean and scrap, except with the Vision. Now you tell me that I can do the same with it if I tried hard enough.....

Cool video too!

golfer - 2008-05-20 8:39 AM I hope ya'll are leaning hard enough into your turn. I have my shocks pumped up for 2 up all the time and prefer the stiffer ride...I am having a hard time scraping unless I actually try to...On my Kingpin I scraped every corner. My Harley Ultra was a scraping maniac...The Vision has WAY more ability than those bikes. Something sounds wrong, or you aren't leaning into your turn enough...My $.02

Let me correct something here... Leaning is the result of turning; not the cause of it. Leaning is a balance between the forces that would have you highside crash and the forces that would have you lowside crash. You can change your lean angle by changing the location of the center of gravity by leaning into the turn or shifting your weight to the inside of the turn. Doing so allows you have less lean angle for the same turn at the same speed. That's why sport bike riders lean to the inside of the turn. They want to go as fast as they can through the turn and shifting their weight allows them to maximize their speed while minimizing their lean angle in order to make the turn. The opposite would be to lean away from the turn and by doing so you would need more lean angle to balance the forces and thus more likely to scrape a board. A lot of riders think leaning away from the turn is more stable or allows them to make the turn. They're wrong. It feels better, maybe, because you feel more on top of the bike, but in reality the bike is having to lean even more into the turn than is needed and is more dangerous for the rider. A bike is turned only by turning the handlebars. At speeds above 15 MPH or so, you turn the handlebars left to go right and right to go left; countersteering. It is assumed by many that leaning turns the bike but that is incorrect. Leaning is simply balancing forces and nothing more. If your boards start to scrape, shift your weight to the inside of the turn and "push" the bike away from the turn and you'll notice the bike will stand more upright and the board will stop scraping and yet you maintain the same speed and turning radius.

VisionTex - 2008-05-20 9:14 AM Fergy - 2008-05-20 7:33 AM Scraping the tip-overs is a little frightening at first especially when the rear wheel lifts off the road a bit. Scraping floor boards is fun, scraping hard points can get you in a lot of trouble real fast. I enjoyed the video.

Light scraping of the fixed parts is one thing. Going into a turn too hot, scraping the fixed parts and not being able to turn more when needed is deadly. I've lifted weight off the rear wheel on a couple of different motorcycles. I have to admit that the Vision handled it the best but I choose not to do it on a regular basis.

varyder - 2008-05-20 9:20 AM Fergy, you're a wealth of information. To the best of my knowledge I'm leaning with the bike and I'm scrapping. I'm hitting the turn hard, and I'm going at least 10-15mph faster on the Vision, than I did with the GL1200. The Vision is much more stable and stays tracking where I want it without the "walk" I felt on the GL1200. I only say that "to the best of my knowledge" is that my head and shoulders is behind the windshield at the same angle as the bike. Of course, at that speed, I may only think I'm doing that and maybe I need to be video'ed to see if I'm doing what I think I'm doing. Huh?

The reason you can go faster is because the Vision will lean farther before scraping. To decrease your lean angle even more and go faster, you need to do more than just be behind the shield. When I'm going around a turn in an agressive fashion, let's say it's a left turn, my left butt cheek is hanging off the left side of the seat and my shoulders and head are way left of center. Take a look at this guy on a cruiser:

http://www.us129photos.com/images/previews/IMG_6470.jpg

He is shifting his weight. Now, you notice the sparks? Well, he's not shifting enough of his weight to get the lean angle more upright. So, he has a choice, let off the throttle a bit (but not too much) to slow his speed or he can lean even more into turn. Both options work. The first thought is leaning more on the side of the scraping peg is going to cause the peg to scrape more. Well, that assumption is ignoring the physics. When leaning into the turn, you moe the center of gravity and to compensate the bike stands more upright. It's counter-intuitive but it's true nonetheless. Because I'm the agressive type, I would lean even more into the turn and maintain and maybe even increase my speed. Now, notice this guy on a sport bike:

http://www.moonshinephoto.com/New%20image%20folder/IMG_1173-1%20copy.jpg

The more you throw your weight to the inside, the less lean angle is needed to make the turn at a specific speed and as such you're able to increase your speed around the turn. So, throw the butt cheek off the seat, shift your weight to the inside of the turn, push the bike away from you a bit, and look not through the shield but to the side of it. I look over the mirror that's on the inside of the turn. You'll notice you can go even faster through the same turn and your buddies behind you will wonder where you went!  

Where is the URL link to the video ???

 Thanks,

Tim 

varyder - 2008-05-20 9:33 AM I've only gone into one turn to hot on an unfamiliar road and the Vision stuck like glue and did not scrap. Normally, when I go in I'm not in the scrap mode, and as I'm in the turn I'll twist the throttle until I do. I've not  had any dig in, just a light scrap, but it is still is on a greater threshold than the GL1200. The only time I scrapped on the CB750 Custom laid me down.

As you increase throttle, throw your butt cheek off the seat toward the inside of the turn and put more weight on the inside floorboard. You'll feel the bike stand up more upright and you won't scrape unless you increase the throttle even more than you normally would. The more weight you throw to the inside of the turn the better and the faster you can make the same turn.

golfer - 2008-05-20 10:13 AM Fergy - 2008-05-20 10:05 AM Yes, like I said, lean into your turn more. And, it is not true that leaning cannot turn a bike at higher speeds. I can ride no handed and turn corners just by leaning. I hope you get your problem fixed!!!

Yes. I can too. But what happens when you just lean? Well, the bars turn a little in the countersteer direction. Try this. When on the bike and stopped, lean the bike a little left or right and notice the bars turn in the opposite direction. Part of the geometry of 2-wheeld vehicles, rake, and such causes this. Haven't you ever wondered why there's rake between the handlebars and the wheel? This is why so many riders think that turning is performed by leaning. It isn't. Take a look at this short article. It shows and interesting demonstration of how a bike turns: http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2007/10/09/motorcycle-countersteering-and-the-no-bs-bike/

golfer - 2008-05-20 10:13 AM  Yes, like I said, lean into your turn more. And, it is not true that leaning cannot turn a bike at higher speeds. I can ride no handed and turn corners just by leaning. I hope you get your problem fixed!!!

Oops! I messed up that post. Here it 'tis again...

Yes. I can too. But what happens when you just lean? Well, the bars turn a little in the countersteer direction. Try this. When on the bike and stopped, lean the bike a little left or right and notice the bars turn in the opposite direction. Part of the geometry of 2-wheeld vehicles, rake, and such causes this. Haven't you ever wondered why there's rake between the handlebars and the wheel? This is why so many riders think that turning is performed by leaning. It isn't. Take a look at this short article. It shows and interesting demonstration of how a bike turns: http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2007/10/09/motorcycle-countersteering-and-the-no-bs-bike/

Fergy,

Thanks much.  Also, nice pict of the wife unit !!!

Tim 

golfer - 2008-05-20 10:49 AM Hey Fergy, we are saying the same thing, lol...What I am trying to tell you is that you have one of two things happening with your Vision: You are not leaning enough "toward" the inside of the turn, that is to say, if you are turning right, you need to lean right, and need to push right on the right side of the handlebars. Trust me, I get the lean thing. As a matter of fact, when watching a sport bike race, they are so far off the inside of the bike, they drag themselves before the bike. Now, it is obvious you know how to ride. Which brings me to the second possibility... Your bike is broke. Or you need more air in your shocks. I only say this because I consider myself a pretty fast rider thru turns. And in my experience, the Vision corners extremely well. If yours is not, there is something wrong. But really, trust me when I tell you I know countersteering, lean geometry, left to go right, and all that mess. Almost forgot...When making a slow turn, we want to lean away from the inside. Therefore, leaning the bike further creates a smaller turning radius. U-turns and such, low speed maneuvers...

I didn't start this thread because I was asking for help, understanding, or because I thought my Vision was broken. I posted because I finally leaned this beast enough to scrape the rear tip-over protectors and was quite proud of myself. I too am a very aggressive rider. There's nothing wrong with my Vision or my understanding of how to turn a bike. The reason for replying to your post was because I felt your advice could be understood by some that turning is due to leaning and not due to steering. Whether or not you understand that makes no difference if the way you state it is ambiguous. I'm not sure where you thought I was saying anything was wrong with my bike or my understanding of how to turn a bike unless you weren't really reading the posts.

With regard to slow speeds, you are correct. You must counter-balance rather than counter-steer and you turn in the direction you want to turn. At slow speeds, the gyroscopic effects haven't taken over so counter-steering isn't necessary. The typical speed at which the gyroscopic effect starts to make a difference is over 12-15 MPH give or take. Then, counter-steering is needed to turn the bike.

The moral of the story is: You turn the bike by turning the handlebars. At slow speeds before the gyroscopic effects are involved, you turn in the direction you want to turn and you counter-balance to keep the bike from falling over. Once the gryoscopic effect takes over (15 MPH or so), you counter-steer or steer in the opposite direction you want to go. Shifting your weight at higher speeds only changes lean angle; not direction. Although leaning makes you feel like that causes the turn, it doesn't. Only turning the handlebars causes the turn.

How about a challenge? You follow me down the Tail of the Dragon. If I can still see you after 1 mile in my rearview mirrors, I'll pay you $1000. Otherwise, you'll pay me.

Outback101 - 2008-05-20 10:50 AM We found our way onto some great roads this weekend. No traffic, good visibilty several turns ahead, and a great surface for hanging it out. For a big bike the Vision rocks. More than a couple of times I caught myself putting out a knee and hanging to the inside of the turns. I'm thinking touring bike, I bought this because I could not behave on a sport bike. I had a way below average sport bike rider in front of me who said he was sorry for holding me up. My only complaint was his stickier tire and lack of a real fender feeding me some road occasionally. My VTX feels like a log with square wheels now. (Not really but you understand) I run the Vision with 40 in the rear shock because I am off and on two up. Scraping with the rear pumped up to 40 would be really haulin' the mail. I don't think I will ever get to the knubs on the side of the front tire. Congrats on having a safe and fast run on the "Dragon"

I completely agree. This bike rocks and handles like a sport bike. I'd kill myself on a sport bike and my wife-unit has told me I can't have one. This is pretty close to one albeit a 850 lb one. Still, for a big touring bike, this thing handles great, has tons of lean angle, and is rock solid at all times. I did get i little tank slapper on the Cherahala Skyway when I was just a tad bit agressive. I rode it out through the turn. The bike was very stable even though it was slapping me around a bit. I'm very impressed with the handling.

varyder - 2008-05-20 11:59 AM Man, these bikes now-a-day have gotten way to complicated. What happened to the time when all you had to do was lean....?

There was never such a time. Even bicycles use the same physics. Just because you don't realize you're doing it doesn't mean it's not happening. All 2-wheeled vehicles use the same physics and turn in the same ways (except for maybe those big wheel bikes of the early 1900s. I don't know if those are different or not.). Take a look at a bike sometime and notice the rake between the handlebars and the front wheel. It doesn't go straight down but at an angle. Try riding a bike or a mortorcycle at say 40 MPH in a straight line and then gently turn the handlebars and notice you go left when you turn right and vice versa. The reason I think it's important to know what's really going on is because it makes for a better rider. The riders courses talk about presing right to go right or pressing left to go left. I'm not sure why they don't just come out and say turn left to go right. Same thing but seems much clearer to me. I don't just press right to go right. I pull with my left hand and push with my right hand to go right and I push with my left hand and pull with my right hand to go left. It makes turning so much easier and instant when you realize what you're doing and that you don't have to have your weight shifted in order to turn. Weight shift only becomes important when you're close to scraping and then you need to lean inside to keep the bike more upright or slow down to keep from scraping in the first place.