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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 8
| Hey guys need help got my 2011 vision 8 ball zero kilometers broke in engine raced my buddys 1200 sportster easily had 6 lenghts on him then installed big honkers vic performance front filter ness top sucker and tried him again and we were same side by side so then added power commander v and same thing when i should be about 15 lengths ahead anyone experienced this aswell? |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 785
Mt. Vernon, WASH. | Dyno time-you need to get all your upgrades working together rather than against each other and a dyno tune session will do your power band lots of good.
Larger diameter exhaust=loss of low end back pressure, increasing your intake sources without tuning the power commander to the new air/fuel mixture and lessened exhaust back pressure are probably a significant part of your issues. |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| What you did was when you added the air filters you leaned out the bike so now its doesn't have as much fuel to burn. Fuel makes power.
The free flowing exhaust lets the gases out quicker. So it would give you power if you didn't lean the bike out.
Try unhooking your 02 sensors and see what you can do. Just follow the wires and you'll find the connectors just un hook it and push it out of the way. Do Not cut the wires.
If none of this helps your going to half to buy a fuel tuner to beat him |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | He might have been sandbagging you the first time just for grins. 1200 Sporties should run low 13's @ about 95 MPH.
If he wasn't, and you actually slowed down, then you do not have your Power Commander tuned correctly for your mods.
If you want to run mid 12s @ 105 MPH, or even quicker, stick a set of Lloydz cams in there along with everything else you've got and get that Power Commander tuned to use it. Rev-extend set to 6400-6500 is advised and shift at 6000 RPM.
Ronnie |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 8
| Thanks for the input boyz do plan on getting llyodz cams and adjustable timing gear hear timing gear makes big power so do u guys think auto tuner would fix it up |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 8
| And jhonnyvision i also have powercommander v allready installed |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | 8 ball vis - 2013-05-16 8:21 PM
Thanks for the input boyz do plan on getting llyodz cams and adjustable timing gear hear timing gear makes big power so do u guys think auto tuner would fix it up
The big power comes with the cams, working in conjunction with the air filters and the fuel controller. The adjustable timing gear helps the low end torque.
The Power Commander has to be tuned to work with all those things or you won't get the results you want. You can talk to experienced techs and set it according to their suggestions. A session on a dyno would give you a custom tune. The auto-tune will do it too, but requires a lot of time and fiddling with a laptop computer, as I understand it. I don't have a PCV myself. I went with the VFCIII instead.
However you do it, the fuel controller needs to be tuned to work with the other stuff, or you're just spittin' into the wind.
Ronnie |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 612
| The Auto Tune does not "require" a lot of fiddling.... simply set the air/fuel ratio the way you want it, or upload a canned map. It's really pretty simple. After that, the fuel tables will begin to converge on your target AFR's, so you just "accept" them periodically 2 or 3 times. That's pretty much it. But, it is the only way to get a real world custom tune. A dyno will only tune for one set of conditions... the Auto Tune just keeps tuning.... |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 8
| So sounds like if i get autotuner that will get my power back and then some is that a good assumtion |
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Cruiser
Posts: 251
Mechanicsville, VA United States | Yup, and get the Lloyd'z ATW for the RPM's below 2,500, the PCV with Autotune will do the rest.......
There is a learning curve you'll have with the PCV and AT300 but fiddling with it and asking questions you'll
figure it out....took me a while but the tuner works and works very well.
Edited by diamonbird 2013-05-17 9:55 AM
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | Turk - 2013-05-17 6:16 AM
The Auto Tune does not "require" a lot of fiddling.... simply set the air/fuel ratio the way you want it, or upload a canned map. It's really pretty simple. After that, the fuel tables will begin to converge on your target AFR's, so you just "accept" them periodically 2 or 3 times. That's pretty much it. But, it is the only way to get a real world custom tune. A dyno will only tune for one set of conditions... the Auto Tune just keeps tuning....
Thanks for the clarification. As I said, I discussed this with a tech before doing my mods, and then ended up deciding on the VFCIII. I was led to believe that a laptop computer is needed to set the PCV, which in my book, is unnecessary complication and extra expense, or "a lot of fiddling". The VFCIII is a standalone device which is set by buttons on the front and can be fine tuned either on a dyno or by road testing. Mine was tuned by the road test method after being initially set to the recommended baseline for my mods, and then fine tuned. Works good. No external computer needed.
Teach me. Seriously. If you have a PCV and want to add the autotune module, how do you "accept" the trims? Do you have to hook it up to an external computer? How do you download a canned map onto the PCV? External computer? Is it possible to just put on a PCV and the auto-tune and then ride happily away without having to do anything else--no external computer or anything? Inquiring minds (mine included) want to know.
That would be cool if you can just plug in the PCV and the auto-tune module and go, without the need for an external computer. Can you do that?
Ronnie
Edited by rdbudd 2013-05-17 11:04 AM
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Cruiser
Posts: 251
Mechanicsville, VA United States | Yes!,You need a computer to set the PCV and the AT and Yes you will need a computer to make changes and accept trims.
If you're happy with the VFCIII then stay with it, I was not happy with the VFCIII........I liked the cost of the VFCIII but was
never happy with my seat of the pants Dyno tune, kept changing it trying to get it better and it would and then there would be a hick-up and it was back to trying different numbers just about every time I rode my bike.
Once you get and install the PCV with AT300 it's a whole new ball game, cost way more then the VFCIII and works better as it should due to the cost.
The only way you're ever going to get the VFCIII prefect is to have it Dyno'ed, the PCV with the AT300 takes care of the Dyno'ing every time you ride.
Set your AFR and ride, come back to the house hook the bike up to your Laptop and accept the trims and it just keeps getting better and better.
Some people ride 1,000's of miles before accepting the trim, I accept mine trims after every ride as I'm looking for the perfect tune and I can say my bike just keeps getting better and better. Lloyd Dyno tuned my 04 KP back in 08, I had the PCIII usb on it, It was perfect so like I have said already
you need to have the VFCIII and PCIII Dyno'ed to make them perfect, now you're stuck cause you had better be done with your mods unless you're going to get another Dyno tune for any changes you make.....what's it cost for the Dyno tune? Are they close to where you live? I had to weigh my options, I did, No one's close to where I live was the number one out come of my options! Anyway,I'm glad I've got the PCV/AT300...it works for me! |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | Thanks. That's what I thought--lots of fiddling with the PCV--and you have to have an external computer.
I don't have a laptop computer, have no need for one--have no intention of ever getting one, because I have no need for one.................
I'm done with my mods. Have been for some time now. My Vision shows its taillights to GL1800 Goldwings, and gets better fuel mileage than Goldwings, which was the goal, (for a total cost of $1290, parts and labor, BTW), so I guess I'll just stick with the dummy-proof ( necessary requirement for me) VFCIII. It may not be perfect. Maybe a dyno tune would help. As long as I can outrun Goldwings with it like it is now, I doubt that I'll ever go to the trouble to find out. If I'm ever near one of the guys that have a dyno and know how to use it, I might see if my setup can be fine tuned even better.
I have no doubt that the PCV and AT300 setup works well too. I might even be willing to give one a try if you didn't have to do "all that fiddling".  I know some folks just like to fiddle and play and get enjoyment from the process. Nothing wrong with that. I'm more of a set it and forget it kind of guy. I'm pretty handy with wrenches, but like my electronics to be simple.
Ronnie |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 8
| U guys are a fountain of knowledge more helpfull than local polaris dealer u guys rock i know lots of u guys are not ridin vision 8 ball model did u know 8 ball model has lower seat and one inch lower stiffer sporty shock spring my 8 ball handles like crazy i sat on stock vision non 8 ball model way uncomfotable and im six ft three still to high for me since u guys helped me so much tryin to help u guyz ill keep u posted on autotuner thanx againl |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 612
| Ok, I guess then since a laptop is required for initial setup, and the occasional fine tuning (or accepting of trims, which btw, does not HAVE to be done), then by that definition, some "fiddling" is required LOL. But, the process is far easier than jumping on Facebook and sending friend requests, posting pictures, or playing games. So, by 'MY' definition, it doesn't require fiddling.... I hook up the laptop maybe once every couple of months just to 'see' where my trim's are. Occasinally, I'll merge them into the base tables (once click).
I've had VFC2's and VFC3's. They are great at what they are designed for, but they cannot "flatten" an AF curve. They cannot remove fuel. There are basically 2 tuning areas within the entire rpm range. So, if you want to add fuel at 2k rpm, it's also adding fuel at 3k rpm, even if that rpm is already too rich. Hook up an AF gauge to your handle bars and watch the real time air fuel ratio. Most people would be surprised and scared at what they see... horrible rich areas with very lean spikes, especially with the reprogrammed ECUs!!! Yes, I had one of those also! But, I had a gauge and could watch my fueling. That is when I decided to switch away from the VFC for my primary fueling and use the PC3usb. I still used the VFC back then, but it was only for it's ability to add extra fuel across the entire range while I sprayed the N2O.
Stock ECU's, I say the VFC is great, but a reprogrammed ECU.... hmm... my experience with the open loop ones was that it absolutely required a Power Commander.
Edited by Turk 2013-05-20 6:47 AM
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Cruiser
Posts: 251
Mechanicsville, VA United States | rdbudd, A reg. computer will work too as that's what I was using until my wife wanted a laptop now I use it as it's more mobile. To each their own, if you're happy then all is good......I do like fiddling though but I fiddle to learn and try to understand the world of perfect motor performance....no hick-ups! Our motors come with way too many from the factory.........Thanks to the EPA! Since you're done modding you should have your bike dyno tuned and it will be as closed to perfect as it's going to get. JMHO! Good Luck man........ |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 612
| I forget who, but I did hear about one Vision owner who started out with a PC5 (not sure if he had an AT unit or not), but decided to switch it out to the VFC3. According to the dyno, he picked up TQ and HP with the VFC3 over and above the PC. Kinda surprising, but that's what was reported by him and by KevinX. Not sure that anyone else has been able to repeat that or not.
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Cruiser
Posts: 251
Mechanicsville, VA United States | HP and TQ are all figured at WOT, it has nothing to do with drive-ability though! How often are we at WOT? This is where the PCV out does the VFC3 and the PCV allows for correct AFR so you're not wasting fuel or running too lean. Now I'm not saying the VFC3 is a bad thing as it's not it's just not the same thing in my opinion. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 612
| diamonbird - 2013-05-20 9:08 AM
HP and TQ are all figured at WOT, it has nothing to do with drive-ability though! How often are we at WOT? This is where the PCV out does the VFC3 and the PCV allows for correct AFR so you're not wasting fuel or running too lean. Now I'm not saying the VFC3 is a bad thing as it's not it's just not the same thing in my opinion.
I fully agree with this statement.
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | diamonbird - 2013-05-20 8:25 AM
rdbudd, A reg. computer will work too as that's what I was using until my wife wanted a laptop now I use it as it's more mobile. To each their own, if you're happy then all is good......I do like fiddling though but I fiddle to learn and try to understand the world of perfect motor performance....no hick-ups! Our motors come with way too many from the factory.........Thanks to the EPA! Since you're done modding you should have your bike dyno tuned and it will be as closed to perfect as it's going to get. JMHO! Good Luck man........
The wife won't let me bring the bike into the house where the computer is. I dang sure ain't going to take the computer all apart and move the computer out to the shop. (It took me too long to figure out where all the cables went the first time--I ain't messing with it).
My goal was to equal the performance of the 1800cc Goldwings I ride with. My performance goals were exceeded (while still retaining the nice quiet stock exhaust--which is much appreciated on long rides). As it is now, (1) my Vision outruns 1800 Goldwings in a drag race, (2) outruns them in roll-on contests in any of the 5 gears the Goldwing has, (3) outruns them on top speed, and (4) gets better fuel mileage than they do.
Could it be better? Maybe it could.
If the VFCIII, in conjunction with Lloydz reprogrammed ECU, hadn't worked out as well as it did, I would have been looking for something else. I guess I got lucky.
I'll concede that a dyno tune "might" make it even better. No dynos around here. If I ever find myself where Lloyd, Kevin, Rylan, or Kyle are set up and doing dyno tunes, I might let one them have at it. Until then, I'm happy.
I've stayed with the stock exhaust on my Vision because it is a touring bike, and I have an extremely loud D&D equipped Sport Cruiser for the times when I just need to "hear the motor run".
I owned and operated my own dyno (in partnership with a buddy) back in the 80s and 90s when I was into drag racing motorcycles. What I discovered was that the aftermarket exhausts invariably introduced dips and peaks into the torque curve that weren't present with the stock exhausts. Then you had to try and "tune them out". Bottom line? Changing your stock exhaust is just introducing valleys and peaks into the torque curve that requires a more advanced fuel controller to compensate for them. You create your own problems. 
Ronnie |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | diamonbird - 2013-05-20 9:08 AM
HP and TQ are all figured at WOT, it has nothing to do with drive-ability though! How often are we at WOT? This is where the PCV out does the VFC3 and the PCV allows for correct AFR so you're not wasting fuel or running too lean. Now I'm not saying the VFC3 is a bad thing as it's not it's just not the same thing in my opinion.
You're absolutely right if you're referring to the inertial dynometers in common use today. The dyno I had back in the 80s and 90s was of the wet brake type--loads and speeds could be varied.
As I stated in an earlier post, my VFCIII was tuned by the road test method. That means that drive-ability is tuned for by road testing and adjusting accordingly. A dyno that operates on the strictly inertial method can't test for drive-ablilty very well. A road test can.
Ronnie |
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| If you don't have a laptop go buy a long cord. The only reason for laptop is you can have it right there at the bike.
Look on line you can rent a laptop |
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Cruiser
Posts: 251
Mechanicsville, VA United States | rdbudd, I'm wasn't telling you what you should do, If you're happy then all is good,I was only letting you know what us guys with the PCV/AT300 have found out or learned. I will say this, if my wife haven't got the laptop my home computer would have been move out to the garage at least long enough to accept the trims after each ride...lol
I wish you could experience the difference in driveability of the two. I know come to Va. and I'll let you ride my bike....actually I would love to come the Jasper MO. and let you ride it! |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | diamonbird - 2013-05-20 8:38 PM
rdbudd, I'm wasn't telling you what you should do, If you're happy then all is good,I was only letting you know what us guys with the PCV/AT300 have found out or learned. I will say this, if my wife haven't got the laptop my home computer would have been move out to the garage at least long enough to accept the trims after each ride...lol
I wish you could experience the difference in driveability of the two. I know come to Va. and I'll let you ride my bike....actually I would love to come the Jasper MO. and let you ride it!
Understood. It's all good. I never said that the PCV/AT300 wasn't a good unit. All I said was that there is more than one way to skin a cat. That's what you're saying too. We agree.
What you guys don't seem to understand is I don't have any drive-ability issues, so I don't need to fix what's not broken.
On top of that, I would be willing to bet that all of you who found that you needed the PCV,for its superior ability to add AND subtract fuel at different places in the torque curve to smooth it back out, have aftermarket exhausts--which you may not realize screwed the torque curve up to start with--creating drive-ability issues--which then requires more tuning ability to straighten out. Sometimes, we create our own problems, which then requires a more complicated "fix" than might have been necessary if we hadn't created the drive-ability issues to start with.
Been there, done that. I was running my own dyno 30 years ago. This fuel injection and digital tuning is a piece of cake compared to the old carburetors and jetting changes we used to have to make, (and the modern dynos are MUCH easier to use) but air/fuel ratios and drive-ability is still the name of the game. In other words, I get it.
Ronnie |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | diamonbird - 2013-05-20 10:08 AM
HP and TQ are all figured at WOT, it has nothing to do with drive-ability though! How often are we at WOT? This is where the PCV out does the VFC3 and the PCV allows for correct AFR so you're not wasting fuel or running too lean. Now I'm not saying the VFC3 is a bad thing as it's not it's just not the same thing in my opinion.
A properly set up VFC offers the same MPG, and drivability in most cases. It is less complicated,cost less, has a significantly lower failure rate, and no external computer is needed to trim it. For 90% of the world the VFC is a better choice. Those that made poor combination choices, or have radically altered their engines; are the only people that really benefit from a PCV. It's all about the blend of KoolAid you drink |
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Power loss troubleshooting
