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Iron Butt
Posts: 752
Broken Arrow, OK | thanks Ark. You know you gotta stomp your foot and pitch a fit at those dealerships, lol.
It's a boatload of white for sure. I was lucky to find a guy that striped it and broke up the canvas for us.
At VITO there were quite a lot of Visions. I saw a 2012 sandstone, many 08's in the dark cherry, some blue too and of course black. All of them looked good, especially lined up together. As I'm sure you are, we are pleased w/ ours.
Off topic but this was our first "brand specific" event or rally. We're not much about group riding but have been trying it out a little more all the time. A Vision rider lost control on a turn Saturday and lost his life as a result so things were pretty sobering for the remainder of the rally. RIP PapaVic
This particular event we met up through the VMC forums with several Vic owners we'd never met before from nearby cities. From the moment we pulled in and greeted one another, it was just meant to be. My wife and I had a super great time. I know there's tons of forum folks that have been doing this for years and I know why. If anyone hasn't attended Vic specific events, I highly recommend it. Besides meeting great folks, you're surrounded by VICS! Ride on!
Edited by okie vision 2012-05-22 8:50 PM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 612
| Arkainzeye - 2012-05-22 5:03 PM
A DS equipped bike may feel like it's leaning as far as an MC equipped bike, but it simply is not going as fast at the same lean angle.
what if your following other bikes at the same rate of speed? i personally have scrapped my floorboard in a turn with a CT.. now honestly it only happened twice... but i have the marks to prove it.. =(
I'll bet THEY didn't scrape at the same speed!
Edited by Turk 2012-05-23 8:41 AM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 612
| Nozzledog - 2012-05-22 5:51 PM
Turk - 2012-05-22 7:08 AM
A DS equipped bike may feel like it's leaning as far as an MC equipped bike, but it simply is not going as fast at the same lean angle.
If the lean angle is the same, and the radius of the turn is the same, with the same bike, then the speed is the same. If your leaning over more at the same speed, then you are falling over.
All true. But, you left out the difference in getting on the edge of a car tire, vs not knifing up on an motorcycle tire. Look, it's just this simple, a car tire on a bike will absolutely, positively, unequivocally NOT handle as well as an MC tire, period. True, they last longer and cost less, and may suffice for the way most people drive, but give up the false notion that they can corner, handle, or go as fast in the curves as an MC tire. If that were true, then every professional motorcycle race bike would be using them (excluding straight line events). I have yet to see even one superbike, grand prix, or supersport event where a car tire was in use because of it's superior qualities over and MC tire.
Now before I get flamed for being anti DS.... I will say that I do see their usefulness on a cruiser such as the Vision. The higher load rating, runflat, and longevity is especially handy for someone pulling a trailer or going on iron butt runs across the continent. Hell, I even considered it had my E3 not gone the 16.5k miles it went. But there is no way I will ever say it handles better. That's just silly, self justification, reverse logic.
Edited by Turk 2012-05-23 8:31 AM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 612
| Kelvininin - 2012-05-21 4:12 PM
There is some great information on car vs motorcycle tires on this forum from someone who knows tires a hell of a lot better than most.
http://www.motorcycleforums.net/forum/off-topic/47922-darkside-cont...
enjoy.
Very informative. Notice how much more reinforced the MT sidewalls and carcass is compared to the CT. The CT does appear to have deeper tread, but below the tread, the MC tire is more sturdily constructed.
Edited by Turk 2012-05-23 8:40 AM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 752
Broken Arrow, OK | Turk - 2012-05-23 8:23 AM
Nozzledog - 2012-05-22 5:51 PM
Turk - 2012-05-22 7:08 AM
A DS equipped bike may feel like it's leaning as far as an MC equipped bike, but it simply is not going as fast at the same lean angle.
But there is no way I will ever say it handles better. That's just silly, self justification, reverse logic.LOL, no flaming when you make sense. Seeing as I ride a CT I'd completely agree with you Turk. I'm getting a tad older now and this is actually what irks me the most about the naysaying. It's always about twisties and scraping pegs. I guess that's why a CT appeals to me the most. I find no reason on any public road in this country to push the limits far beyond posted speeds. I can promise you there is not a road, twisty or not, in this country that I cannot safely corner through at given "safe", posted speed on my CT. Can I keep up on a track with a race bike with my CT? Heck no and wouldn't want to. I cringe everytime people start bragging about scraping pegs and pushing to the limits on the Dragon or anywhere else. So you are right, it's not for everyone and I agree they are not racing tires. We've lost 2 Vic brothers at events I've attended recently in the twisties and I've come to heed warning when the big yellow sign suggests a slower speed as you're about to enter a turn. Ride on! Now before I get flamed for going the speed limit, I don't give a rats azz,,LOL and I won't toss marbles at tailgates. We have no problems pulling over  |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 623
| Turk - 2012-05-23 8:40 AM
Kelvininin - 2012-05-21 4:12 PM
There is some great information on car vs motorcycle tires on this forum from someone who knows tires a hell of a lot better than most.
http://www.motorcycleforums.net/forum/off-topic/47922-darkside-cont...
enjoy.
Very informative. Notice how much more reinforced the MT sidewalls and carcass is compared to the CT. The CT does appear to have deeper tread, but below the tread, the MC tire is more sturdily constructed.
Try that test with a run flat, different story. I went out for a 4 mile loops with zero psi on my run flat, to test out my tpms, and to see how it rolls with zero psi if I get in a bind on my way to Alaska next week. It's was amazing. Just 30mph 4 mile ride, it was amazing to me. It's nice to know that tire will take everything the dalton and the alcan will throw at it |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | Turk - 2012-05-23 8:40 AM
Kelvininin - 2012-05-21 4:12 PM
There is some great information on car vs motorcycle tires on this forum from someone who knows tires a hell of a lot better than most.
http://www.motorcycleforums.net/forum/off-topic/47922-darkside-cont...
enjoy.
Very informative. Notice how much more reinforced the MT sidewalls and carcass is compared to the CT. The CT does appear to have deeper tread, but below the tread, the MC tire is more sturdily constructed.
I cant agree a motorcycle tire is stronger. I'm only basing this on my personal experience with removing a tire. On my 2008 vision I actually cut my dunlop tire of the rear wheel. I only had to use diagonal cutters to get the steel ring around the rim off.. try doing that to a car tire! Steel belted. |
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Tourer
Posts: 466
Grand Cane, LA | ""Here is my logic...
Just so you know...
Being injured due to improper use or not using the proper safety equipment: Injury preventable with proper use of safety equipment.
Drinking and driving: Irresponsible operation of a machine under the influence of drugs and or alcohol. This is preventable with the responsible use of motorized equipment.
Replacing your parachute with a cinder block: Injury, resulting from the implementation of incorrect equipment.
Car tire on a bike: Irresponsible implementation of improper safety equipment. This is no different than anything from the above. Modern tires are part of the safety equipment of anything that uses them. To knowingly use the incorrect product in a specific application is really no different than skimping on safety gear or drinking and driving. The only pro I can see about using a car tire is its cheap. That's a pretty shitty reason to put ones own personal well-being and those around them at risk.
I use to be the last person to be a safety nag but it sucks when people get hurt, and its easy preventable with the proper equipment and use.
Really think of it this way, especially the way Victory has cheapened out the Vision the past few years. If it were really a good idea, and was just as safe and handled as well, to save a few bucks, most motorcycle manufactures would mount car tires on stock bikes.
The only stock bike I have ever head of having a car tire out of the box is a Boss Hoss. Those things can't turn anyway.""
Obviously you have never researched the issue or else you would know that motorcycle riders have been riding on cars tires since the early 60's when most homemade choppers only ran car tires because it was only thing available for the rims they were using. Do a little researching before commenting on an issue you apparently know nothing about. You will probably find that cars tires are tested under more strenuous tests that would leave a bike tire in the dust. Most bike tires are only tested under track conditions and subjective results from various riders. See how many tire manufacturers will show you their testing videos and you will find no motorcycle tire testing only car tire testing. Many of those you can even find on the Internet, but not a single one of a motorcycle tire being tested.
Sorry I couldn't get the quote thing right!
Edited by atvtinker 2012-05-23 3:59 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 1229
Rancho Cucamonga, CA | I really don't think the wall thickness of the tire comes into play. Both CT and MT are built extremely well and I have never heard of any incidents where either failed structurally. The link defenitly shows that CTs and MTs are constructed different, but we all knew that. Otherwise it failed to make any point, other than a MT sidewalls are to short to fit the bead flanges on a car rim.
I have yet to see a Vision compete in a superbike, grand prix, or supersport event, but even if they do I wouldn't expect to see a CT on one. I doubt you would see a touring tire on one either.
Turk, I have yet to see any one or any video showing a CT on a motorcycle going up 'on its edge'. They all show that the sdewall bends leaving a flat contact patch during cornering. Maybe if CTs had bulky sidewalls like MTs, this would be true, but CTs do not (as shown in the link by kelvininin).
Edited by Nozzledog 2012-05-23 4:03 PM
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Cruiser
Posts: 188
| okie vision - 2012-05-23 7:16 AM
I find no reason on any public road in this country to push the limits far beyond posted speeds.
It must be awfully straight in OK. Here in the Pacific Northwet, one can nearly scrape the tip overs off at below the posted speed limit, when riding through some of the more twisty mountain roads.
I routinely drag the floor boards on my Vision, and sometimes even the tip overs, although dragging the tip overs makes my butt pucker so I try to avoid it. This is with hanging way off the bike in the turns.
But I also am know to ride a bit more aggressively than most. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 188
| atvtinker - 2012-05-23 1:57 PM
""Here is my logic...
Just so you know...
Being injured due to improper use or not using the proper safety equipment: Injury preventable with proper use of safety equipment.
Drinking and driving: Irresponsible operation of a machine under the influence of drugs and or alcohol. This is preventable with the responsible use of motorized equipment.
Replacing your parachute with a cinder block: Injury, resulting from the implementation of incorrect equipment.
Car tire on a bike: Irresponsible implementation of improper safety equipment. This is no different than anything from the above. Modern tires are part of the safety equipment of anything that uses them. To knowingly use the incorrect product in a specific application is really no different than skimping on safety gear or drinking and driving. The only pro I can see about using a car tire is its cheap. That's a pretty shitty reason to put ones own personal well-being and those around them at risk.
I use to be the last person to be a safety nag but it sucks when people get hurt, and its easy preventable with the proper equipment and use.
Really think of it this way, especially the way Victory has cheapened out the Vision the past few years. If it were really a good idea, and was just as safe and handled as well, to save a few bucks, most motorcycle manufactures would mount car tires on stock bikes.
The only stock bike I have ever head of having a car tire out of the box is a Boss Hoss. Those things can't turn anyway.""
Obviously you have never researched the issue or else you would know that motorcycle riders have been riding on cars tires since the early 60's when most homemade choppers only ran car tires because it was only thing available for the rims they were using. Do a little researching before commenting on an issue you apparently know nothing about. You will probably find that cars tires are tested under more strenuous tests that would leave a bike tire in the dust. Most bike tires are only tested under track conditions and subjective results from various riders. See how many tire manufacturers will show you their testing videos and you will find no motorcycle tire testing only car tire testing. Many of those you can even find on the Internet, but not a single one of a motorcycle tire being tested.
Sorry I couldn't get the quote thing right!
You're funny.
I do a tremendous amount of research and am very informed when making my statements. Thank you! |
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Cruiser
Posts: 232
| Maybe some of yu'all just need to have a few more riding lessons in order to ride on a car tire.I have a c/t on fat bottom girl and i like it.I'm noway a great rider but i do ok stay up with the boys that can ride. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 752
Broken Arrow, OK | Kelvininin - 2012-05-23 5:37 PM
okie vision - 2012-05-23 7:16 AM
I find no reason on any public road in this country to push the limits far beyond posted speeds.
It must be awfully straight in OK. .For the most part it really is. We have our spots, SE part of the state but it's a given if you're wanting spirited twisty riding, you'll leave the state. We would LOVE to bike the NW part of this country.
One thing is, I've really never spent time on the bike alone. We travel on it, period. She's on the back and there's always luggage. No doubt the handling is very different to solo riding.
Interestingly enough, I mounted a CT, my first by the way on over half a dozen owned bikes, strictly for safety only. Shipped to the house and mounted was over 200 bones so money savings really didn't come into play. I felt the load rating and run flat technology could save us. We've had 2 local rear tire blowout incidents locally within the past 6 mo's that resulted in 3 deaths.
Unfortunately I find myself thinking too much lately while riding. I don't second guess my tire choice for what we do but the overall choice of motorcycle riding.
The accident and death of a VMC member last weekend at the event we were at. Another rider losing his life at the same event last fall. Cell phones and cages and on and on. Probably overthinking our vulnerability. Maybe I'm coming to realize it might not be what I wished and hoped it would be......that sux cause when we return from an event free weekend, it's really good.
But yes, we travel a good long road to get to ride areas that you probably have in your backyard! Ride on, ride safe.
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 23
| Parachute vs. cinder block? Was that a real argument or a joke? That is quality logic right up there with Monty Python. A better example would be a construction helmet vs a combat helmet. At least they are both helmets! Which one is better on a construction site? Well, it depends on what hits you in the head.
MTs and CTs are both tires unlike the ridiculous comparison made above. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 880
Orlando, FL | Boys, Boys, Boys. I only use Vic oil. Anything else causes clutch slippage!
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Iron Butt
Posts: 880
Orlando, FL | One note someone made on a darkside thread that has teeth. For me this argument over-rides everything else!!!! And yet no one is talking about it.
Will your insurance company deny a claim becauase you are using car tires? It's something to think hard about. Based on news stories I have read, Nationwide denied a stolen car claim from a policyholder becasue he had the key in his possession, and they argues that because of that he must have been part of the crime. It took a lawyer and 4 years before he won in court. But did he really win? Four years of hell? And all he recoverted was the value of his car four years later!!!!!! If an ins. co will work that hard to avoid a claim for the value of a car, think how hard they will work to avoid paying out hundreds of thousands on a bike wreck with injured parties (you, your passenger, others involved in an accident)
Think hard my fellow riders. Using a car tire is using a non-approved tire on a motorcycle. Insurance companies these days will seemingly try anything to avoid paying for any reason they can find. Nationwide went to a lot of trouble for the cost of a car. Imagine if you were being sued, or worse, you or your passenger were a quadraplegic seeking compensation. It could cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars if you are sued or injured. And having a tire they deem inappropriate on your ride might just do the trick in this complicated world. My lawyer advised against going darkside just for this reason. THink it can't happen? Think again~
Just puttin it out there for your consideration. Make an informed choice and consider more than just tire handling, longevity and retail tire cost.
Link to story: http://www.wftv.com/news/news/insurance-companies-refusing-to-pay-f...
Edited by MaddMAx2u 2012-06-13 9:35 AM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 741
Central New York | Nozzledog - 2012-05-23 4:58 PM I really don't think the wall thickness of the tire comes into play. Both CT and MT are built extremely well and I have never heard of any incidents where either failed structurally. The link defenitly shows that CTs and MTs are constructed different, but we all knew that. Otherwise it failed to make any point, other than a MT sidewalls are to short to fit the bead flanges on a car rim. I have yet to see a Vision compete in a superbike, grand prix, or supersport event, but even if they do I wouldn't expect to see a CT on one. I doubt you would see a touring tire on one either. Turk, I have yet to see any one or any video showing a CT on a motorcycle going up 'on its edge'. They all show that the sdewall bends leaving a flat contact patch during cornering. Maybe if CTs had bulky sidewalls like MTs, this would be true, but CTs do not (as shown in the link by kelvininin). I see no logic in the diagram shown. To say, and depict, that there is no shear force on a motorcycle is joke at best. If that were true there would be no such thing as "low side", where the bike slides out from under. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 741
Central New York | MaddMAx2u - 2012-06-13 10:24 AM One note someone made on a darkside thread that has teeth. For me this argument over-rides everything else!!!! And yet no one is talking about it. Will your insurance company deny a claim becauase you are using car tires? It's something to think hard about. Based on news stories I have read, Nationwide denied a stolen car claim from a policyholder becasue he had the key in his possession, and they argues that because of that he must have been part of the crime. It took a lawyer and 4 years before he won in court. But did he really win? Four years of hell? And all he recoverted was the value of his car four years later!!!!!! If an ins. co will work that hard to avoid a claim for the value of a car, think how hard they will work to avoid paying out hundreds of thousands on a bike wreck with injured parties (you, your passenger, others involved in an accident) Think hard my fellow riders. Using a car tire is using a non-approved tire on a motorcycle. Insurance companies these days will seemingly try anything to avoid paying for any reason they can find. Nationwide went to a lot of trouble for the cost of a car. Imagine if you were being sued, or worse, you or your passenger were a quadraplegic seeking compensation. It could cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars if you are sued or injured. And having a tire they deem inappropriate on your ride might just do the trick in this complicated world. My lawyer advised against going darkside just for this reason. THink it can't happen? Think again~ Just puttin it out there for your consideration. Make an informed choice and consider more than just tire handling, longevity and retail tire cost. Link to story: http://www.wftv.com/news/news/insurance-companies-refusing-to-pay-f... It is not just insurance companies that would use this as an out. There are times when a tire really can have a defect and blow out. Should that ever happen to a car tire on a motorcycle, well, you know where that's going. |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | I'm neither a car tire user, or well ever be, unless I go to Alaska, or an advocate of a car tire on a bike. But I have yet to see anyone cite a case concerning any rider using a car tire on the bike and it resulted in the cause of an accident. Citing totally unrelated and irrelevant cases serves no purpose whatsoever in the discussion. My rationale for folks using a car tire has not changed either, but if they chose to do so, I'm happy for them. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 880
Orlando, FL | Oh varyder, so your legal argument and mighty wisdom to your kids would be, well, I never heard of it so it's ok??????????????
Geez. Really? I never heard of CDO's causing a banking calmity before it happened either. But it happened!! Whatever argument you want to use is fine with me. I was just offering food for thought.
The "relevancy" you are claim isn't there (again, because YOU have never heard of it) is that an insurance company will use any method to avoid a claim, hence increasing profits. DUH! But then again, perhaps you have never heard of an insurance company denying a valid claim. Go figger!
This is a no brainer. A car tire is not an approved tire for a motorcyle. Neither is a tractor tire, or a bicycle tire, etc. etc. It doesn't matter if the tire caused the problem or not. But hey, you're smarter than my attorney???
I was not offering the info to argue a point. I was offering something for everyone to consider and make thier own decision. It's your arse, not mine. So do what you wish. I was only offering something more important to consider than a few bucks saved on a tire. And please, before you offer anymore BS, please do some research. Ask a lawyer, or call YOUR ins company's claim department and ask them for a written opinion. Good luck with that one!
But please, don't advise people that it's ok because you've never heard of it happening. That's just inappropriate. Unless of course you're willing to assume the liability that goes with that statement. Pity the fellow rider that follows your advise and has a blowout due to a defective CT (yea, that never happens) and ends up a quad, with no insurance compensation to provide for his care and treatment because YOU said it was ok.
Geez.
Edited by MaddMAx2u 2012-06-13 10:16 AM
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 23
| People have checked with insurance companies and State highway and safety offices. The ones I recall reading said that as long as the tire was DOT approved then it was OK for a motorcycle. Where is the evidence that insurance companies have denied claims because of a CT? Pot calling the kettle black perhaps? Lawyers can and will argue anything so that particular comment proves nothing.
By the way, who is the approving authority you allude to that has not approved CTs for motorcycles? A manufacturer?
So thousands of people running hundreds of thousands of miles (maybe millions of miles) on CTs is not sufficient evidence that it does not cause instant flaming death? Come on now, there has to be some significant negative trends with so many people doing it, right?
What the community has learned to date is, yes, you can run a car tire and guess what? It performs better in some areas and worse in others. None of the haters and naysayers have been able to produce evidence it has caused any significant problems. That is kind of a clue that perhaps it is not so bad or dangerous after all.
I guess I am going to have to go Darkside some day so I can speak from personal experience. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 249
Phenix City AL. | The wintersport is about 1/2 inch shorter than the elite III, so it will scrape a small bit sooner, most will not notice it. As far as riding on the knife edge, the tire flexes and keeps a good foot print, I let someone else ride my vision 2 up while in Helen, I rode behind them, while doing so, I watched the tire while going around corners, I could see the way the tire flexes, I was quite impressed, by the way it kept a decent foot print. |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | I don't see where I approve, just stating an observation. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1066
Peru, IN | I know alot of riders that run on the Darkside. Hell, I even know one that runs a light truck tire. I have yet to hear a single bad thing about their experiences. 99% of them say that they would NEVER go back to a MT. The 2 (or maybe 3) that didn't like it, were only on it for a few days and didn't give it a chance. They thought it felt odd. Of course it feels odd. Just like it would feel odd going from a sports bike to a tourer.
On a Nomad forum I frequent, we have a genuine insurance writer/adjuster/executive. Even he's said that no legitimate insurance company will deny a claim based soley on the fact that there's a CT on the back of your bike. Of course the insurance company will try to INITIALLY deny your claim based on that. It's their "job" to deny claims. How else would they stay in business? In the end, they've all paid out.
With all that said, I don't care if someone rides on the Darkside or not. I think for a tourer, it's the smart thing to do. As others have said, I wouldn't put one on a Gixxer. I'm just not that much into cornering like Eddie Lawson these days. Some spirited riding is one thing but my knee will never voluntarily touch the ground.
On the Nomad forum, there are those on either side of the argument. No way either side can convince the other side to change their mind. I'm sure it will remain the same everywhere until we all get hovercycles. (BTW, I'm first in line for one. )
Peace! |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 880
Orlando, FL | Monkeyman - 2012-06-13 10:56 PM
On a Nomad forum I frequent, we have a genuine insurance writer/adjuster/executive. Even he's said that no legitimate insurance company will deny a claim based soley on the fact that there's a CT on the back
Peace!
Oh my gosh how silly of me. ?Of course, ?if someone claiming to be an insurance executive/underwriter/adjuster on the Internet stated that it's okay I'm sure it is!!!!!
Yes of course!?
AND all the?women on those dating sites ARE slim and very attractive.
AND there really were WMDs in Iraq!!
AND the banking system really was fine right before its collapse!!
AND ?Jamie Dimond, CEO of Chase was correct when he stated everything was good right before they announced a (whoops) $2 billion trading loss.?
And ?I don't know for sure that ?it's not approved for a motorcycle. ?But it is called a CAR tire so perhaps that's a clue?? ?Hmmmmmm.?
BTW, ?I have some fabulous waterfront property in the Everglades that I'll be happy to sell you. ?I'll give you a really good deal too.?
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Car tire by Rollin
