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New Vision, clutch surge?
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Allen_B
Posted 2013-05-06 4:26 PM (#138417)
Subject: New Vision, clutch surge?


Cruiser

Posts: 106
Clinton, CT
Still getting to know my brand-new '13 Vision (only have about 200 miles on her) and have noticed an odd behavior.

I have noticed that at zero-to-low speed and when the bike is cool, the clutch/bike seems to surge. That is, when engine is just off idle and slipping the clutch to get the bike moving or in very slow speed maneuvering, the bike seems to surge or pulse. The surging is not in the clutch lever; it is the bike itself surging (the clutch is smooth and seems linear). Never had a bike behave like this, new or otherwise.

Of note, when the bike is fully warmed up it is 99% gone.

Any suggestions on what would cause this? Stopped into the dealership to ask about it and they had never heard of it but they don't strike me as having much knowledge on the Victory bikes- fairly new dealership. I'd like to believe this is a new break-in issue but again I've never felt anything like this with other new bikes.


/r

Allen
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diamonbird
Posted 2013-05-06 5:12 PM (#138419 - in reply to #138417)
Subject: Re: New Vision, clutch surge?


Cruiser

Posts: 251
Mechanicsville, VA United States
Lean condition A/F, you will need stage 1 upgrade to fix, Thank You EPA!
I think the dealers are not allowed to tell you that, that's why they play dumb and said "We never heard of such"!?

Edited by diamonbird 2013-05-06 5:16 PM
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RhodeTrip
Posted 2013-05-06 5:35 PM (#138423 - in reply to #138417)
Subject: Re: New Vision, clutch surge?


Cruiser

Posts: 185
Rhode Island
To prove the lean condition, unplug your O2 sensors and see if it improves; the bike will default to a richer setting.
Jim
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Allen_B
Posted 2013-05-06 6:13 PM (#138429 - in reply to #138417)
Subject: Re: New Vision, clutch surge?


Cruiser

Posts: 106
Clinton, CT
Would not have thought about a lean condition, especially since the system should be running rich prior to being fully warmed up. The issue seems to me to feel clutch related but will have to take a look and unplug the sensors...

Or I could just say to hell with that since I am taking the bike in to Kyle as soon as I pass the 500 mile mark and he is back in the shop!

/r

Allen

Edited by Allen_B 2013-05-06 6:14 PM
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johnnyvision
Posted 2013-05-06 6:16 PM (#138431 - in reply to #138417)
Subject: Re: New Vision, clutch surge?


Visionary

Posts: 4278
Give it a few more mile for the clutch to wear in. I'm thinking by the time you get to 500 miles the problem will be all gone.
At what rpm are you starting to move at you might be to low
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Allen_B
Posted 2013-05-06 6:19 PM (#138432 - in reply to #138431)
Subject: Re: New Vision, clutch surge?


Cruiser

Posts: 106
Clinton, CT
johnnyvision - 2013-05-06 7:16 PM

Give it a few more mile for the clutch to wear in. I'm thinking by the time you get to 500 miles the problem will be all gone.
At what rpm are you starting to move at you might be to low


Haven't paid much attention to the tach to nail down specific RPMs, but would have to guess 1500ish- I will take another look. It is not lugging by any means...

/r

Allen
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Monkeyman
Posted 2013-05-06 6:27 PM (#138436 - in reply to #138417)
Subject: Re: New Vision, clutch surge?


Iron Butt

Posts: 1066
Peru, IN
1500 is way too low for a Victory. Try more like 2500+. Shift higher and wait til you get your first service done (500 miles). I had the same problem when my bike was new. Once I started shifting higher and got my first service, I had no further problems.
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Allen_B
Posted 2013-05-06 6:50 PM (#138440 - in reply to #138436)
Subject: Re: New Vision, clutch surge?


Cruiser

Posts: 106
Clinton, CT
Monkeyman - 2013-05-06 7:27 PM

1500 is way too low for a Victory. Try more like 2500+. Shift higher and wait til you get your first service done (500 miles). I had the same problem when my bike was new. Once I started shifting higher and got my first service, I had no further problems.


Monkeyman,

Appreciate the response- glad I am not imagining things but I am not sure if we are talking about the same thing. I took a wild guess at the RPMs in my post above and would guess I way under shot my guess. In u-turns, I tend to hold the RPMs pretty high (again, not looking at the tach but by sound) and control my speed by feathering the clutch in the friction zone.

Normal riding (thus shifting) isn't the issue. This is slipping the clutch in the friction zone to get the bike moving from a stop or during very low speed maneuvers. Think of holding the bike on an incline with the engine and clutch or when turing tight in a U-turn.

I have already discovered that during normal riding, I need to shift a bit higher than I was accustomed to. Seems to lug a bit anywhere under 2k and much happier at 2500 cruising...


/r

Allen
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RhodeTrip
Posted 2013-05-06 7:28 PM (#138448 - in reply to #138417)
Subject: Re: New Vision, clutch surge?


Cruiser

Posts: 185
Rhode Island
Remember, that thing has break in oil in it still; get the 500 on it and get the oil changed then get as many miles on it as you can before Kyle gets back. You really want to keep the RPMs above 2500, cruise up closer to 3000.
Now for the important question: what kind of stuff are you going to have Kyle put on it?
Jim
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Allen_B
Posted 2013-05-06 7:52 PM (#138451 - in reply to #138448)
Subject: Re: New Vision, clutch surge?


Cruiser

Posts: 106
Clinton, CT
RhodeTrip - 2013-05-06 8:28 PM

...Now for the important question: what kind of stuff are you going to have Kyle put on it?
Jim


Plan is for:

- Air intake filter
- Adjustable intake
- PC-V
- Adjustable timing "wheel"
- Idle air valve
- VM1-HPT-DR "touring" cams
- D&D Slip-ons


From what I can tell, I think the current plan will really wake the bike up without a bore kit but I am curious about the 116" kit. Curious, but guessing after all is said and done would be out of my price range to get it running reliable and smooth. I'm thinking I would have to do almost everything listed above and add the 116 kit, making it well past the limits of my checkbook.


/r

Allen
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Oldman47
Posted 2013-05-06 8:31 PM (#138460 - in reply to #138417)
Subject: Re: New Vision, clutch surge?


Tourer

Posts: 573
Central Illinois
Check it out on their site, but I think you will find that the PC-V can adjust the timing for you, no need for a separate ignition timing wheel.
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rdbudd
Posted 2013-05-06 9:03 PM (#138466 - in reply to #138460)
Subject: Re: New Vision, clutch surge?


Visionary

Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO
Oldman47 - 2013-05-06 8:31 PM

Check it out on their site, but I think you will find that the PC-V can adjust the timing for you, no need for a separate ignition timing wheel.


That's true--sort of. The PCV can adjust timing above 2500 RPM, but not below. The adjustable timing wheel works below 2500 RPM, and works with the PCV or any other fuel controller.

Ronnie
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Oldman47
Posted 2013-05-06 9:27 PM (#138472 - in reply to #138417)
Subject: Re: New Vision, clutch surge?


Tourer

Posts: 573
Central Illinois
Thanks for that correction. I have only looked into the PC-V on a superficial level. I am not a horsepower or performance fanatic.
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RhodeTrip
Posted 2013-05-07 4:16 AM (#138484 - in reply to #138417)
Subject: Re: New Vision, clutch surge?


Cruiser

Posts: 185
Rhode Island
Allen,
That will wake that bike up without question. My advice is to figure on a long day, Kyle will need maybe 3hrs but your going to need at least 5 or 6 hrs to get back to CT; once you feel the difference you won't be going straight home.
Without question, get some miles on it and get some fresh oil in it over the next 2weeks your not going to want to hold back once you feel the difference.
Let us know what you think once Kyle is done with it.
Jim
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Allen_B
Posted 2013-06-16 7:04 PM (#140565 - in reply to #138484)
Subject: Re: New Vision, clutch surge?


Cruiser

Posts: 106
Clinton, CT
Okay, reviving this thread... Now close to 2k miles and zero improvement even with new oil.

The surging is not RPM dependent- it is speed dependent. When slipping the clutch at low speeds, the surging is obvious from just off of a dead stop to maybe 5mph.

I am still not sure if this is normal for the Victory and the dealership was zero help. They said it is normal for any bike with a "dual stage" clutch- granted I'm not a mechanic but I have no friggin clue WTH they are talking about. Every interaction I have with this service department makes my head hurt worse....

Pls advise.

Allen

Edited by Allen_B 2013-06-16 7:32 PM
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Oldman47
Posted 2013-06-16 8:07 PM (#140570 - in reply to #138417)
Subject: Re: New Vision, clutch surge?


Tourer

Posts: 573
Central Illinois
I have no surging on my VV at speeds below 5 MPH. I also do not have any gear, including first, where I can fully release my clutch at that low speed. My clutch is fully out at about 10 MPH in first, not at 5 or anything close to that value. Are you sure you are not just feeling your own responses to slipping the clutch in first?
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kevinx
Posted 2013-06-16 8:44 PM (#140573 - in reply to #138417)
Subject: Re: New Vision, clutch surge?


Visionary

Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators
The light surge on cold take off is from sticky clutch plates, and POSSIBlY a slightly warped pressure plate. Happens on initial engagement maybe a couple times when cold. Not a lot to be done for it, or much need to worry about it
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Street Eagle
Posted 2013-06-16 9:51 PM (#140578 - in reply to #138417)
Subject: Re: New Vision, clutch surge?


Iron Butt

Posts: 691
Manchester, CT
Hey Allen

My 2013 didn't exhibit the same or similar issues you are experiencing. This week's weather looks good. I could get together with you tomorrow or Tuesday and we can compare the issue you are seeing. Also, my Victory mechanic is one of the best around. He's the guy other Victory mechanics come to when they come across problems they can't fix. In the next couple of weeks I too am going to be modifying the engine - PC-V, Cams, upper air filter. I have the L1S1 exhaust installed and the bike has been flashed. According to Lloydz, there really isn't a difference in perf between the D & D vs the L1S1 on the Vision.

Shoot me an email at tom.pudlinski@cox.net
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willtill
Posted 2013-06-17 4:59 AM (#140584 - in reply to #138417)
Subject: Re: New Vision, clutch surge?


Visionary

Posts: 1365
Central Maryland
Many of us have that "clutch surging" as you have described it. It's due to the clutch plates not being fully lubricated right after a cold start. Apparently common and normal for this bike; at least from the other posts I have read about it.
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Arkainzeye
Posted 2013-06-17 8:24 AM (#140588 - in reply to #138417)
Subject: Re: New Vision, clutch surge?


Visionary

Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA
I noticed you talk about it at slow speeds in first gear. Could you be talking about Gear lash? when you twist your throttle is there any slack in it?
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Turk
Posted 2013-06-17 8:42 AM (#140589 - in reply to #140588)
Subject: Re: New Vision, clutch surge?


Iron Butt

Posts: 612
My Vision does this EXACT same surging during clutch engagement when the bike is cold, and I have all the fueling bells and whistles. It is absolutely NOT a lean surge from the motor. It IS distinctly from either slightly warped clutch plates, or the judder (sp?) plate installed incorrectly at the factory. Several people have reported this issue. When the bike warms up, the effect is greatly diminished. I'm waiting for an excuse to replace my clutch pack. I have read of one other individual with this issue that did have his clutch pack replaced. There was an improperly installed piece, and after the new clutch disks/plates were installed, the clutch surging went away, and his clutch engagement smoothed out. It is not harmful, just annoying.

Edited by Turk 2013-06-17 8:45 AM
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Street Eagle
Posted 2013-06-17 12:53 PM (#140599 - in reply to #138417)
Subject: Re: New Vision, clutch surge?


Iron Butt

Posts: 691
Manchester, CT
Allen, maybe the reason I haven't experienced it is because I make sure I run the engine for at least a couple minutes to warm up. Willtil are you referring to once the plates get warmed up?
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atvtinker
Posted 2013-06-17 4:46 PM (#140605 - in reply to #138417)
Subject: Re: New Vision, clutch surge?


Tourer

Posts: 466
Grand Cane, LA
I think that maybe what he is feeling is actually coming from the "slipper" clutch. It is trying to slip because the clutch is fully engaged but the bike is actually lugging due to its weight and is not moving fast enough. I've have only noticed it on mine when I try to slip the clutch for low speeds and when I fully let the clutch back out again it will momentarily do it if I don't give it enough throttle.
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Allen_B
Posted 2013-06-17 6:01 PM (#140608 - in reply to #138417)
Subject: RE: New Vision, clutch surge?


Cruiser

Posts: 106
Clinton, CT
There is zero throttle lash- I installed the Lloydz 1/4 turn throttle ring. This is not gear (or driveline) lash.

Nothing to do with a slipper clutch... A suspected faulty clutch or pressure plate but no engine braking envolved so a slipper clutch doesn't enter the equation.

No issues with warming up. The bike will still surge when fully warmed up BUT is is significantly reduced when fully warmed up. It's more subtle but still there.

Ok, I will attempt to explain this again...

The surging is when easing the clutch partially out, with the clutch in the friction zone. Again, this is not with the clutch fully engaged OR fully disengaged.

This is especially prevalent at VERY slow speed maneuvers and is NOT engine RPM dependent, it is speed dependent- Increasing engine RPM doesn't change the sensation; it will surge (almost pulse) slower or faster depending on the speed of the bike. Additionally, if I ease the clutch out a bit further, the surging will subside.

This is very obvious when moving the bike around in a parking lot or when creeping along in traffic- you slip the clutch just enough to maintain your movement. Anyone who has taken an MSF rider course, think of the clutch control lane exercises...

KevinX mentioned a possible warped pressure plate- Again I am not a mechanic but understanding the basics of how a clutch works, envisioning (no pun intended) what I would suspect a warped pressure plate would feel like makes a lot of sense for what I am experiencing. It is almost as if something is skewed (mis-aligned).

Turk - 2013-06-17 9:42 AM
My Vision does this EXACT same surging during clutch engagement when the bike is cold, and I have all the fueling bells and whistles. It is absolutely NOT a lean surge from the motor. It IS distinctly from either slightly warped clutch plates, or the judder (sp?) plate installed incorrectly at the factory. Several people have reported this issue. When the bike warms up, the effect is greatly diminished. I'm waiting for an excuse to replace my clutch pack. I have read of one other individual with this issue that did have his clutch pack replaced. There was an improperly installed piece, and after the new clutch disks/plates were installed, the clutch surging went away, and his clutch engagement smoothed out. It is not harmful, just annoying.


THIS! I would be very curious what the service dept actually replaced/did to the bike you are referring to. I doubt this issue would cause catastrophic failure of the clutch/tranny but it would have to affect longevity and as mentioned, it is VERY annoying.


/r

Allen
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Arkainzeye
Posted 2013-06-17 6:20 PM (#140610 - in reply to #138417)
Subject: Re: New Vision, clutch surge?


Visionary

Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA
im curious, you said it is NOT rpm based. but IS speed based.. well the clutches spin with the rpm's of the motor so...

let me ask you this... if you are drifting in a parkinglot at slow speed and you hold the clutch all the way in , what happens?
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