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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 8
| Just looking for some info. I have had some electrical gremlins over the past 6 months and starting to suspect there may be several things at play. Posted some of this on another forum but didn't get a lot of conclusive results.
First, started with complete power cut out while idling for a bit. I traced that the 40A main breaker was tripping, usually when hot. I figured it was just getting tired so I swapped it.
After I replaced it, I decided since I was still on the original battery on my '09, I'd go ahead and swap it.
Just to make sure things were kosher, I ran through the shop manual and checked out the charging system.
-When I initially fire bike up cold, it idles about 1100 and I get a good solid 14.5 volts and show equilibrium (no current entering or leaving battery wire with a clamp on ammeter).
-As the bike warms, idle drops to somewhere between 900-1000. Usually voltage there stays around 14.
-If I activate the brake lights (either lever or pedal) voltage drops to around 12.8 or 12.9. If I add a bit of throttle it goes back up to above 14.
All of these seem to be pretty close to the Service Manual's check out. If I turn on the HID, or start adding other loads, however, the charging system will not keep up with the load at idle and the battery discharges.
Is this fairly common with other folks? I've had people tell me I should never drop below 14.2, but I do know that in 2011 they may have changed the charging system to put out more idle current.
Now, here's the strange part. If I let the bike idle (in garage ambient temp around 80F and no fans or cooling) I found something strange. After about 30 minutes idling, the charging system appears to be completely dead. Throttle up the bike, and no voltage increases (in some respects it decreases due to the additional duty cycle from the ignition system). Ammeter confirms no charging at all.
Once the bike cools, again no issues. I checked the stator by unplugging and measuring AC volts across the 3 phases and it was around 17.2-6 volts on each when it was HOT (after the charging system failed). I tried crimping the stator connector sockets a little tighter to get a better connection.
Sound like a bad regulator/rectifier? The RR also checks out fine when cool, but it is hard to get a reading hot because to perform the service manual checks all 5 leads have to be disconnected.
So questions:
1) Do the idle voltages sound good, is the system really negative with brakes applied, and worse with HID? I hate to think what's happening with heated grips, seat, center HID, brake lights...
2) Intuitively, if the bike cannot produce enough power, that would point to the stator, but the measurements aren't really conclusive here for either stator or rectifier. Does anyone know if there is some type of overtemp protection in the Rectifier?!? Seems to me if this was true, I'd at least get warmed with a check engine light to capture that charging system crapped out so I could safely pull over, but looking at how things are wired, the bikes electronics wouldn't be able to tell where current is being supplied (battery vs. rectifier) since they're obviously a common connection and there are no sensing circuits on either lead.
It's always possible I have something drawing too much, but the brake lights draw about 6-7 amps. When I added up the bulb wattages this seems somewhat in line.
I don't want to just start throwing rectifiers or stators at it. I drove it to work today, and 20 miles the bike was fine...no stalling, while at speed (above 1300 rpms) I'm easily above 14V even with brake lights. Obviously there is air flowing across the rectifier fins as well as engine (which would keep stator cooler). |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | On my '08, the voltage drops down into the low 13s and high 12's at idle. Turning on the HID or applying the brake lights drops it into the 12s. As soon as the idle is raised up to 1100 or 1200 RPM, the voltage goes back up into the 14s.
Sitting at a stop light, engine idling, in the dark with our heated gear running, I can see the headlights dim slightly every time one of the controllers fires and the voltmeter will be down in the 12s. Giving it a little throttle and running 1200 RPM brings the voltage back up and the lights steady.
Apparently, the alternator doesn't put out much below 1100 RPM. However, I've never had a problem with keeping the battery charged or running heated seats and grips in conjunction with two sets of heated riding gear while riding.
Ronnie |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 8
| Thanks Ronnie. Before I had the circuit breaker tripping I didn't pay as close attention to the voltmeter. Measuring the current going in and out of the battery pretty much confirms everything you say...the battery is at a good equilibrium at idle with no additional accessory loads. Add brakes and other items and it quickly goes to discharging.
It just is the way it is I suppose. Thinking if I put in HIDs and possibly some LEDs (which may require some modding to the flasher circuitry to avoid using load equalizers) I might be able to get back 60 watts or so. That's enough to at least keep the charging system positive with brake applied.
Still kinda strange with the bike idling in neutral for a long period of time to get the charging behavior I did, and it is repeatable. |
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Tourer
Posts: 466
Grand Cane, LA | Did you check and see what kind of draw it was pulling with everything on? The bike should be able to keep up electrically with all the bells and whistles on even at idle. The charging part of the system should always be at least 14.2 volts. I would be willing to say you have a bad voltage regulator or you have something that is shorted out that is not going through your fuse system but still through your main breaker. I have seen it where a guy had added one of those big horns and the power wire he ran it next to his exhaust and when the bike warmed up, it would trip his breaker. Took us forever to find it because the wire ran right behind the header along the frame. Those Harley guys will run stuff anywhere on their bikes! Lol! |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | dogfish73 - 2013-06-19 3:06 PM
Thanks Ronnie. Before I had the circuit breaker tripping I didn't pay as close attention to the voltmeter. Measuring the current going in and out of the battery pretty much confirms everything you say...the battery is at a good equilibrium at idle with no additional accessory loads. Add brakes and other items and it quickly goes to discharging.
It just is the way it is I suppose. Thinking if I put in HIDs and possibly some LEDs (which may require some modding to the flasher circuitry to avoid using load equalizers) I might be able to get back 60 watts or so. That's enough to at least keep the charging system positive with brake applied.
Still kinda strange with the bike idling in neutral for a long period of time to get the charging behavior I did, and it is repeatable.
Mine's done it since new and there has been some discussion about it on the forums. Stronger charging at idle is one of the improved features touted on the newer bikes. Low charge rate at idle is pretty normal on the early Visions, but they keep up just fine as soon as the bike is brought up off idle.
I'll defer to the expertise of people like Kevin and Rylan on the LED additions and "saving juice", but as I understand it, the charging system uses a shunt type regulator. What this means is that the alternator is putting out a full charge 100% of the time and the regulator just shunts whatever the bike doesn't use. In other words, putting in LEDs isn't going to change the alternator behavior. I do follow your logic of less load at idle with the LEDs, but if you have to use resistors with them to get the bike's circuitry to work right, you've gained nothing as far as "saving juice".
Ronnie
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| now I'm just guessing
you could check to see what volts your getting on one side of the relay up on top then see its the same on the other side. You will need some kind of jumper wire to wedge in there.
Maybe dealer would warennty the regultor asking will not hurt.
check ground or even add ground to regulator
The wire from the regulator runs to the relay behind the battery maybe the nut is loose or even the relay is bad when hot. Put a hair dryer on it to get it hot.
Even buy a regulator off ebay some one here can buy it from you.
call the Vic shop hes a great guy |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 8
| atvtinker - 2013-06-19 4:22 PM
Did you check and see what kind of draw it was pulling with everything on?
I haven't run this test; to do it requires disconnecting the left and right side main supply voltages from the breaker and adding a shunt so I can get enough slack to slide a clamp on ammeter. Hard to say exactly what the load should be...it's curious that the main breaker is 40A, I can start calculating just the lighting alone drawing half that! There are no heavy hitter accessories/add ons above what is stock. Just a GPS wired into the Vic circuit (when I unplug it it doesn't change much) and the CustomDynamics flexible LED strip under the trunk (which when measured doesn't substantially change anything). All other accessories are stock. I do run the CB/Intercomm, maybe that adds more load than other folks that have a more solid 14.2 V at idle. Note, I do have 14.2V at idle when cold...
rdbudd - 2013-06-19 4:44 PM
Mine's done it since new and there has been some discussion about it on the forums. Stronger charging at idle is one of the improved features touted on the newer bikes. Low charge rate at idle is pretty normal on the early Visions, but they keep up just fine as soon as the bike is brought up off idle.
I'll defer to the expertise of people like Kevin and Rylan on the LED additions and "saving juice", but as I understand it, the charging system uses a shunt type regulator. What this means is that the alternator is putting out a full charge 100% of the time and the regulator just shunts whatever the bike doesn't use.
Ronnie
Totally understood on the shunt regulator. At idle, however, I'm not producing enough current so I was just figuring this as a possible mitigation. One solution yields another problem I suppose. Since I spend more time at speed then perhaps it is best to leave it alone. I'm somewhat intrigued on how the newer Vics have more stable idle charging. When I look at an 2011-13 Rectifier it is listed as a common part (but is a replacement for the 08, 09, 10 P/Ns). The Stator, however is listed as different starting in 2011. So that might be it. They are still only rated at 48A however, which I think is the same. The 2011 stator could be different for a number of reasons since that's also the same year they modified the Transmission for a 5k service interval, so who knows if the actual geometry needed to change.
johnnyvision - 2013-06-19 8:32 PM
Put a hair dryer on it to get it hot.
When you say "relay" I assume you mean the main breaker? I've swapped it and it no longer trips, so that was clearly one of my issues. I have had every wire off in the process of troubleshooting, and subsequently cleaned and reattached. There are no loose wires at this point. It definitely seems that the regulator is being affected by heat but to test it needs to be disconnected. Once disconnected it might be cool, however your hairdryer / heatgun idea might be interesting. I.e. I can test it on the bench while artificially heated.
Since the Regulator/Rectifier is an updated P/N, I ordered one thinking perhaps there was some improvement (could just be a different supplier too who knows).
2 days riding back and forth to work though, and I've got no problem. So as long as I don't sit at a light for 30 minutes... |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 810
| Any updates on your charging problem? Did the new Regulator/Rectifier part number fix the problem?
I have a similar problem with my 2008 and have to artificially keep the idle up during stops to keep the battery from draining.
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Iron Butt
Posts: 810
| atvtinker - 2013-06-19 1:22 PM ... I would be willing to say you have a bad voltage regulator or you have something that is shorted out that is not going through your fuse system but still through your main breaker. ... Does this mean you can not wire things straight to the battery terminals with their own fuses and relay controls which only allow allow them to be enabled once the bike is on ??? TIA
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| I found the other day the the ground wire on the motor was loose all so the wires on the relay were loose |
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2008 - 2010 Idle Voltage
