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Tourer
Posts: 400
| Back in 2001, maybe? Anyway Victory teamed with Visteon and made the Visteon Vision. The bike was on display at the AVR in 2011. That bike would start with a fingerprint. So, again it sucks that there is alot of technology on the Chieftan that hasn't been put on the Vics. Especially since Vic is celebrating 15 years and Indian is in its first with Polaris. |
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Visionary
Posts: 3204
Memphis | Polaris Indian could NEVER have pulled off this measure of success without building the Victory's first. Call Polaris a lot of things but stupid is not one of them. These guys learn from both their mistakes and other peoples strong points. This is not the same company that built the V92C. They have invested a TON of blood, sweat, tears and money over the last 15 years. V92C jump to Vegas was THE turning point in the Victory direction. Vegas jump to Vision was overwhelmingly complex and controversial and I'm not sure that the Polaris players involved with that jump will ever get over what a big deal it was. Love it or hate it, the Vision project was a gigantic learning curve. The popularity of the Cross Country is proof of the lessons learned there. Along comes Indian. The single greatest game-changer in the history of Polaris. This iconic brand has tried to crawl out of the ashes for longer than Polaris has been around. It finally claws its way back to the point of being an almost unattainable brand, in the realm of Duesenberg. Even if you saw one, all you could do is shake your head and think "Not in my lifetime." Imagine the Polaris brass mindset when they bought Indian and announced it to their team. These are PREMIUM bikes from an iconic brand name that we have to make better and more affordable. Oh, by the way, you'd better not screw this up! Polaris had to make the Indians "better" than the Victory's. We can sit on the Victory sideline and think "Gee, that sure would have been nice on our bikes." The truth is, Polaris could never have pulled off that reveal and cranked out Indians of that quality, at that price point, in that timeframe had it not been for the lessons learned from Victory. Indian owes last weekend to Victory in many regards. Victory will benefit from the bar being set so high by Indian. They will each be better because of the other being in the same house.
Edited by SongFan 2013-08-05 4:27 PM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 721
| SongFan - 2013-08-05 4:12 PM Polaris Indian could NEVER have pulled off this measure of success without building the Victory's first. Call Polaris a lot of things but stupid is not one of them. These guys learn from both their mistakes and other peoples strong points. This is not the same company that built the V92C. They have invested a TON of blood, sweat, tears and money over the last 15 years. V92C jump to Vegas was THE turning point in the Victory direction. Vegas jump to Vision was overwhelmingly complex and controversial and I'm not sure that the Polaris players involved with that jump will ever get over what a big deal it was. Love it or hate it, the Vision project was a gigantic learning curve. The popularity of the Cross Country is proof of the lessons learned there. Along comes Indian. The single greatest game-changer in the history of Polaris. This iconic brand has tried to crawl out the ashes for longer than Polaris has been around. It finally claws its way back to the point of being an almost unattainable brand, in the realm of Duesenberg. Even if you saw one, all you could do is shake your head and think "Not in my lifetime." Imagine the Polaris brass mindset when they bought Indian and announced it to their team. These are PREMIUM bikes from an iconic brand name that we have to make better and more affordable. Oh, by the way, you'd better not screw this up! Polaris had to make the Indians "better" than the Victory's. We can sit on the Victory sideline and think "Gee, that sure would have been nice on our bikes." The truth is, Polaris could never have pulled off that reveal and cranked out Indians of that quality, at that price point, in that timeframe had it not been for the lessons learned from Victory. Indian owes last weekend to Victory in many regards. Victory will benefit from the bar being set so high by Indian. They will each be better because of the other being in the same house. ++1 
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | It's owed to the development of the Vision. I think one of the reasons I like the Vision so much is the Art Deco and the rear side view reminds me of the rear skirted fender of an Indian. I believe there was a lot of late hours and scrap metal and castings to get it going from scratch to production. The other good thing is, that while Indian is strong in heritage, the tribe will acclimate to whatever form Indian has taken. I'm sure there will be some that have a little heartburn with the cast frame, but when they see the war bonnet, that settles it, it's an Indian.
Edited by varyder 2013-08-05 4:53 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 2300
Georgia, west of Atlanta | I agree 100%. Polaris learned alot from building Victory. Indian will benefit from the almost indestructible crankshaft of the Freedom engine, I bet it is identical except the stroke is longer. The transmission is probably just like the newest model Victory, wouldn't be surprised if the gears aren't interchangeable. You can pick out pieces on the Indian models and say I see Victory there, there and there. I wonder, is this the first pushrod engine Polaris has ever made ??
Edited by XRsteve 2013-08-05 4:54 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 2300
Georgia, west of Atlanta | One thing I don't think the Chief can match the Vision in is wind protection. Even with a adjustable windscreen and a wind tunnel developed fairing I've never ridden a bike that has a fork mounted fairing come close to the wind protection of the Vision, neither the Cross Country Tour or a Road Glide Ultra. AND the RG is frame mounted.......... |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | I'm beginning to understand something here, the Chieftain is the Indian geezer glide. While wind protection minimizes fatigue, I sure would like a lot less of it on some days. Purists want to straddle the saddle, hit the wind and hang on. This is one of the reasons that Indians came with nothing more than a windshield. Anything above that, get a Vision... If I want lowers on a Chieftain, I would use leather panels to lace around the bars.
Edited by varyder 2013-08-05 6:42 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 3204
Memphis | Beach bars, no windshield, fringe blowing parallel with the road....roll me away. |
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Visionary
Posts: 2300
Georgia, west of Atlanta | Hey guys, on another subject a fella I know in my small town is picking up a new 2013 Vision tomorrow.. That will make 3 in my small town, pop. 25,000. of course two of them are mine but it's a start............But wait, if I trade one of mine for a Chieftain it'll go back to two............Hope all is having a good evening............steve |
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Cruiser
Posts: 103
Davenport, IA | Songfan. You said it best, the Indian will only validate respect for Polaris and will only make the company stronger, thus benefiting both brands. I just heard from my brother who is at Sturgis now and test rode the Indian Chieftain, his only words were, "it was amazing"! You go Polaris!! |
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Tourer
Posts: 411
Dallas, Texas | Once the drool dries, and the aw-factor subsides, dealer network and availability may prove to be the achilles heel of Indian. Hopefully not.... |
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Cruiser
Posts: 77
Bainville, & Mesa, AZ, MT | XRsteve - 2013-08-05 3:57 PM
One thing I don't think the Chief can match the Vision in is wind protection. Even with a adjustable windscreen and a wind tunnel developed fairing I've never ridden a bike that has a fork mounted fairing come close to the wind protection of the Vision, neither the Cross Country Tour or a Road Glide Ultra. AND the RG is frame mounted..........
You hit the nail right on the head there. I was fortunate enough to do a demo ride yesterday and there were two things that Indian still needs to work on in my opinion. First the wind protection was poor, you hardly could call it a geezer ride. The second was the dismal passenger seating, my wife was bailing off before we even left the parking lot. I am sure for the guys that are still dating or on their honeymoon it would work just fine, but for those of us that the honeymoon was over many years ago its a dismal failure.
On the plus side, the 111 is impressive. It will easily out do my 106, in fact the torque made the 106 look really sick. I wouldn't doubt that it would even take a cammed 106. The bike rode smooth, shifted smooth, and handled as good as my Vision.
I have been test riding HD's looking for a second scoot and was getting serious about the Heritage. After my test ride on the Cheftian that idea went bye bye. Personally I don't think HD makes a single scoot that can come close to it. Victory is also looking at some stiff competition from Indian with the Vision being the only bike that might compete.
I may end up owning one, but I will never give up the Vision for it. |
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Visionary
Posts: 2300
Georgia, west of Atlanta | Don't get me wrong here, I think the Chieftain looks great. But I know it can't be as spacious and comfortable as our Visions. Hmmm, Maybe with a tourpack to lean against it'll be better for passenger comfort and I'm sure that's coming. It is what it is......... However I'm still considering buying one. Test ride pending...........Is it better than a Vision as a touring rig ?? Short answer NO, Is it cooler than our Visions ?? That's to be determined........... |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | It's taken me a while to get it, but I think I get this motorcycle thing. This release of Indian is proving my point, whether anyone else gets it or not, or maybe I just don't get it. One, Indian is not about replacing anything, it's about bringing back an icon of motorcycle history. There's many things that the Indian is that Victory will never be for many years to come. I enjoyed a thorough two hours or more discussion of motorcycle passion with an Indian die-hard enthusiast. In those two hours, not once did he bash any other motorcycle, to include HD. He talked about rider appeal and the love of riding. As much as I drool over an Indian, it is not my Vision, and it carries no competition for me. Like my Indian lover friend said, "I've got the perfect bike for how I ride." speaking of the Vision. I've not gone to any other forum than the two Victory forums I participate in, one NOT being the VOG, but I'm amazed of how there is a lot of buzz over the new Indian and the remarks of folks wanting to dump their Victory for an Indian. I'll say this and I'm done. Victory has had it's struggles because most folks have never had a passion for the brand, only the passion to own something American that is not a Harley. So, if that is the case, Victory will take a hard hit, and those going to Indian looking for the comfort of a Victory, they will be sorely (pun intended) disappointed. I believe as a heritage bike, this Indian will be the top of the line in comfort, but if you're going to make it a Vision or Cross bike by accessorizing it, stay with a Victory and put tassels on it, you'll fair better. I'm done.
Edited by varyder 2013-08-06 7:10 AM
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Cruiser
Posts: 77
Bainville, & Mesa, AZ, MT | I think you may change a little once you have ridden them. In my opinion if you want old school the Cheiftain in hardly the bike for you, while they did bring the old lines into the bike that's where it ends. The Chieftain was clearly built to go head to head with the cross bikes or any other brand cruiser/touring bike. I have little doubt that in the near future we will see this bike with a removable trunk and lowers.
If you want retro/old school stay with the Classic or Vintage and we will all be happy. |
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Visionary
Posts: 2300
Georgia, west of Atlanta | Varyder, very good points and well put............
Edited by XRsteve 2013-08-06 8:41 AM
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Visionary
Posts: 3204
Memphis | Chieftan - After watching all the videos a hundred times by now, certain things become evident. Polaris pulled the Vision A-team out of Victory and put them on the Chieftan project. The Chief and Vintage Chief have a boatload of design cues established so that transition from previous models was not that tough. The decision about which ones to pick from and use was tough but it was because they had so many to pick from. I think that each model of Chief had a lead designer assigned. The Chieftan was Vision territory; totally uncharted. In some ways it was freeing because there was no blueprint, in other ways it was gut-wretching because it had to tie in to an iconic brand that had never built a faired bike with hardbags in its 110 year (at that time) history. Rule #1 - It must never be mistaken for a Harley but it still has to look American. Sheesh, where to start. Every Chieftan video that shows the mock-up/modeling/production has clips of my favorite designer either carving clay off the seat or standing back to get a perspective. His hair is a little grayer now, surely a reflection of the Vision years. It just does me proud that when Polaris really has a ground-breaking project to pull off (starting with the Vegas) they go to Mike Song and his hand-picked team. The Chieftan is all about the fairing and it has his fingerprints all over it. If I had to guess, he might have started with a Google image search of locomotive streamliner. When you are going into high-profile, high-stakes, but unknown territory, who you gonna call........
Edited by SongFan 2013-08-06 11:24 AM
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Visionary
Posts: 2300
Georgia, west of Atlanta | I just hope that the Indian production line is churning out 50 bikes a day, theres only about 100 work days left in 2013.. There is nothing better for product success than to have the item where and when the customer wants it. There are "Indian people" that have been waiting on this for decades and now the real deal has arrived. I believe before the HoopLah dies down Indian could sell 5000 bikes in 6 months and maybe 8000 in the first model year. If more so much better for Polaris. But they gotta be available, Especially with Indians past track record. Not all motorcyclist or fans know the virtue and power of Polaris.........Hell there are still people that come up to me and love my Vision but they never heard of Victory.......... |
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Visionary
Posts: 3204
Memphis | These are 2014 year model bikes so they have a year to make them. Scott Wine is hoping for 4,000 this year and 8,000 2015's. If I were to buy a modern Indian and stick it in a vault for my grandkids to auction off someday, it would be one of the 2013 Kings Mountain bikes. They just turned into the unwanted stepchild this last week but 50 years from now, they will be remembered for their pure massive size and exclusivity. I could have picked up an LE or FE a month ago for the same price I'll be paying for the Polaris Indian that will number in the thousands during its first year. The "1901" numbered limited edition 2014 bikes being offered right now is about how many Kings Mountain bikes were produced under the entire Stellican regime.
Edited by SongFan 2013-08-06 3:50 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | I don't think the KM Indians are as redheaded as you may believe. I would be sure they will sell them out in the year to come. While Indian is hitting the street under Polaris with fire, it will create a new "tribe" of Indian riders. I'm inclined, if the prices would fall more, to get a Dark Horse over one of the new Polaris Indians. The KM Indians will probably be the solid collectors items since they are the last of the steel frame bikes. The New Indians will have to gain a new following that will be peppered with few of the old tribe folks, but will be sustained with the new kids (actually, old farts that always wanted an Indian but couldn't find or afford one.) |
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Cruiser
Posts: 281
| SongFan - 2013-08-06 4:49 PM
The "1901" numbered limited edition 2014 bikes being offered right now is about how many Kings Mountain bikes were produced under the entire Stellican regime.
Really? I would have thought there would have been more KM Indians made than that.
It sure would have been nice to pick a KM Indian up at the end when the bottom fell out on the prices. If money grew on trees, I would have gotten one. |
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Visionary
Posts: 3204
Memphis | There were only 35 LE's made and I'm not sure how many FE's were sold. Way less than 100. I can't remember where I saw it but I saw 2,240 as a number thrown around for the KM bikes. Don't know why somebody would just make that up. The #1 accessory I'm waiting for Polaris to make for their new Indian is the arrow shaped shift rod. Coolest thing ever (except for the LED War Bonnet). |
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Cruiser
Posts: 244
Lindale, TX | I'm concerned about the size of the Chieftain. H-D Ultras are much smaller than the Vision and I'm afraid Victory abandoned the Nordic riders of America who measure 6'2" or higher. The ability to please tall riders without $1000's in modifications is what makes the Vision design so special.
Any reports on the Chieftain from taller riders? |
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Visionary
Posts: 3204
Memphis | My best friend-riding buddy here in Memphis ordered a Blue Vintage today from the new dealer in Arkansas. (He said my buddy was #16 firm buyer since since yesterday. Shipping and dealer prep fees are being waived.) My buddy is 5'10 and the dealer recommended the 2" pullback bars since he ordered the drivers backrest and would be leaning back a little. 6-footers plus would fit the stock bars ok. As far as the Chieftan goes, it is a couple of inches shorter than the Classic and Vintage but that's wheelbase, not necessarily a factor with legroom. The Chieftan floorboards have more clearance than the Vision and allow a 48% lean angle. Should corner like no other v-twin bagger ever made. Chieftan will also have heated grip option with heat display indicator on the dash. Here is one of the best article/video combos I have seen so far (Buried in the middle of the article is the fact that the Chieftan seat design will be available on the other two models later on. Makes me wonder what the difference is.) Not sure how tall the author is.: http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/155/16786/Motorcycle-Article/2014-Indian-Chieftain-First-Ride.aspx Another intersting note. Scroll through the comments at the bottom of the article and read the one by McJitsu. Pretty cool.
Edited by SongFan 2013-08-06 8:12 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 2300
Georgia, west of Atlanta | SongFan - 2013-08-06 8:06 PM
My best friend-riding buddy here in Memphis ordered a Blue Vintage today from the new dealer in Arkansas.? (He said my buddy was #16 firm buyer?since since yesterday.? Shipping and dealer prep fees are being waived.)? My buddy is 5'10 and the dealer recommended the 2" pullback bars since he ordered the drivers backrest and would be leaning back a little.? 6-footers plus?would fit the stock bars ok.? As far as the Chieftan goes, it is a couple of inches shorter than the Classic and Vintage but that's wheelbase, not necessarily a factor with legroom.? The Chieftan floorboards have more clearance than the Vision and allow a 48% lean angle.? Should corner like no other v-twin?bagger ever made.? Chieftan will also have heated grip option with heat display indicator on the dash. Here is one of the best article/video combos I have seen so far (Buried in the middle of the article is the fact that the Chieftan seat design will be available on the other two models later on. ?Makes me wonder what the difference is.)? Not sure how tall the author is.: http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/155/16786/Motorcycle-Article/2014-Indian-Chieftain-First-Ride.aspx Another intersting note.? Scroll through the comments at the bottom of the article and read the one by McJitsu.? Pretty cool.
Holy Cow !!!! 16 confirmed orders in two days ?? I knew there would be alot of activity but not quite that much. Crank up production Indian !!! Sad I bet No Victory dealer has ever sold 16 bikes in a two day time frame.. Oh well, that is what it is. I just put in a request for a test ride with Indian dealer in Birmingham AL. Hope to ride one by months end.............. |
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2014 Indian Chief
