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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | OK finally had a chance to get Devilboys Vision on the dyno after installing the new Lloyds cams. I will say that we did have a little bit of a surprise. With a stock map in place I could not add enough fuel to get everything out of it. The last half of the run is pretty much above 14\1 A\F so it gave up a bit. Looking at the sheet you will see the torque starting to peak, but cut off by the mixture going lean. After speaking to Lloyd tonight we figured out that the Stage map puts in a bunch more fuel then anticipated. He is going to write some new code for the VFC that I will be able to program in, and that should get the Devil's bike right. for the rest of you I would leave in the Stage map if you are planning on this upgrade. That said I am sure that Loyd will have the reprogramed VFC available if needed
Another thing worth mentioning is that I set the cruise A\F up at 13.8 against the dyno brake. This is slightly richer then Vic sets it up from the Factory. Devilboy rode a couple hundred miles today, and said the bike felt smoother, and like an animal ready to get off the leash. He also said that fuel economy IMPROVED BY 2MPG!!!
(devil dyno.jpg)
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Forgot to add that torque starts off at 90FtLb, and clears 100 at 2700RPM. It then NEVER dips below 100 after that. This should eliminate questions about loss of bottom end torque. Motor feels about the same till 3k, and then it is like a monster. Perfect for those 2 lane passing situations |
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Cruiser
Posts: 50
| Thanks to Kevin and Lloyd for all your R&D.
Glock |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 41
Oviedo, FL | KevinX, will Lloyd also develop a reprogram for those of us with the stage 1 level 2 map? I'm starting to feel like an expected parent with the ideal of some added performance to our Vision's without losing it's touring potential and mpg. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 296
Central Florida | Stryker - 2008-12-14 10:41 AM
KevinX, will Lloyd also develop a reprogram for those of us with the stage 1 level 2 map? I'm starting to feel like an expected parent with the ideal of some added performance to our Vision's without losing it's touring potential and mpg.
I don't think it will be necessary S1L2 map probably adds a little more fuel at WOT so it might be just right. I am sure Kevin or Lloyd could answer better. |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | Stryker - 2008-12-14 10:41 AM
KevinX, will Lloyd also develop a reprogram for those of us with the stage 1 level 2 map? I'm starting to feel like an expected parent with the ideal of some added performance to our Vision's without losing it's touring potential and mpg.
As the Devil himself said. You should have no problems getting enough fuel with your program in place. I can't wait to get my hands on her to see what REAL difference there is in the two levels of pipe |
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Cruiser
Posts: 296
Central Florida | Stryker - 2008-12-14 10:41 AM
KevinX, will Lloyd also develop a reprogram for those of us with the stage 1 level 2 map? I'm starting to feel like an expected parent with the ideal of some added performance to our Vision's without losing it's touring potential and mpg.
Does that mean Stryker is next in line for cams???  |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 41
Oviedo, FL | You betcha' |
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Cruiser
Posts: 296
Central Florida | Stryker - 2008-12-15 1:19 PM
You betcha'
Kevin is doing his this weekend when he gets back from School...
now I will NEVER outrun him! |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 810
| KevinX, How long did the install take? Did you have to pull the motor to replace the CAMS ? Thanks, Tim
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Tourer
Posts: 460
Centennial, CO | I am also curious about this AND the cost. I would love to get a bit more out of my motor.  |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | i was wondering ths same thing.. Cost of install vs gains in performance to see if the cost is worth the handful of extra ponies. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 296
Central Florida | S1L1 set up with VFCIII and stock map gave me max HP 91 and TQ 105.
with only changing the cam to Lloydz new Vision Grind we are 107HP and 108TQ(with more to come with VFCIII reset-should be about 114/114 with enough fuel at Wide open throttle)
we are looking at 23 peak HP more and 3 peak TQ more.
if you look at chart you will see that 100/100 comes at about 2400 rpm and remains that # or higher until rev limiter. It is a totally different bike and worth every penny of the cost.
Motor doesnt have to be removed from Bike and Kevin took approx 4 hours to R&R cams.
Cams are $385 and labor can vary depending on labor rates in your area.
It is totally worth the expense as the bike pulls like nothing out there.
In addition to smoother operation, my Gas Mileage has increased by approx 2 MPG
and I managed the same or better MPG on a recent 850 mile trip to south Florida including a prolonged run in triple digits on the Florida turnpike.
Kevin had similar results on his Kingpin with flatter and Fatter curve from 2400 rpm to red line.
he also had MPG increase and this is probably due to increased efficiency.
Ride safe all you Vision-Riders and have a Happy and Healthy NEW year!
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Tourer
Posts: 537
, FL United States | Hmm. Looks like I might have to drive to the dreaded swamp.
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1117
Northeast Ohio | My dealer has these on order for me too. So Lloyd is fixing the stock, not stage map, fueling issue? |
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Tourer
Posts: 353
| devilboy - 2008-12-28 6:22 PM
Motor doesnt have to be removed from Bike and Kevin took approx 4 hours to R&R cams.
Cams are $385 and labor can vary depending on labor rates in your area.
I would love to know what is involved in the install, I just might be willing to do the job myself.
Any info available? |
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Cruiser
Posts: 296
Central Florida | ScoreBo - 2008-12-28 11:23 PM
My dealer has these on order for me too. So Lloyd is fixing the stock, not stage map, fueling issue?
I had gone back to stock map when recall was done for popping and drivability, since I was running too rich with stage map. and losing HP/TQ. Now with the cam, It is running lean at WOT
so Lloyd is reprogramming VFCIII. If you are thinking about Cams on your Vision, when you do recall do the stage map and you should be right on the money. If you have stock map, Lloyd can up the quantity of fuel on WOT(red pot) to get max performance. If you look at dyno chart you will see that it is running too lean from 3600 to rev limiter. with the optimal a/f set up, you should get another 7HP and 9 TQ at max power spot.
DO NOT forget that Max HP/TQ is not indicative of how bike runs but just a snapshot of max possible power. What is MORE important is that HP and TQ is much stronger from 2400-redline
and this is what your butt will tell you.
(june.28.dyno.a.jpg)
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1117
Northeast Ohio | I am running the stock map and always have been. When you say reprogram the VFC, is there anything that needs physically done to the box by Lloyd? I totally understand tuning as I also have a 650HP Subaru STi, but these boxes don't have an input to modify the programming. So I am assuming you mean just maxing out the red pots.
DB, how does the bike really feel? I REALLY want to do this but am very concerned about affecting reliability. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 296
Central Florida | ScoreBo - 2008-12-29 5:00 PM
I am running the stock map and always have been. When you say reprogram the VFC, is there anything that needs physically done to the box by Lloyd? I totally understand tuning as I also have a 650HP Subaru STi, but these boxes don't have an input to modify the programming. So I am assuming you mean just maxing out the red pots.
DB, how does the bike really feel? I REALLY want to do this but am very concerned about affecting reliability.
VFCIII will actually be reprogrammed as my red pot is maxed out and still not getting enough fuel at WOT.Lloyd just has to change programming to allow more fuel at WOT.
Bike idles at same 1K after warm up and runs smoother at all RPMs I do not believe reliability is going to be an issue. I have done approx 1200 miles since cam change with all types of riding, stop and Go in Miami, Back roads through the orange groves in central Florida and wide open on turnpike at triple digit speeds for over an hour straight. Mileage is same or better and for 100+ mph stretch I averaged approx 38 mpg. No stalling, popping or other drivability issues.
when tach hits 2500 in lower gears just hold on!!!
I am also sending you a PM |
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Tourer
Posts: 374
Tucson, AZ | Does Victory have performance cams or is everyone using Lloyds? I ask this because i am interested in doing cams, i know Lloyds are Andrews cams, and have checked Andrews website for lift and duration but nothing on the Vision cams. Heck i dont even know the lift of the stock cams. I know warranty claims are a dealer thingy, meaning they can finagle the process to corporate as to whether or not certain items are covered and with that i can understand the Dealer wanting to use parts they sell to make a quarter verses a dime. Now if Victory has performance cams and they are in the same ballpark, duration and lift, i might consider it. Also i am confused as to how the rear rocker cover is removed without pulling the motor. Only way i can see is to pull one front motor mount bolt, and the rear ones to let the motor pivot at the front thus lowering the rear cylinder?...any help would be appreciated....i was quoted appx. 10 hrs labor.
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Iron Butt
Posts: 810
| mkultra - 2009-01-05 11:11 AM ... i know Lloyds are Andrews cams, ... Mike, Lloyds sells Andrews cams and his own cams that he is having made to his own specs. They are NOT one and the same. Victory is using their own Stage 2 cams in the 2009 models (don't know who they are made by, maybe S&S). Some dealers have been using the Andrews cams that have been around for a while. Lloydz has just released his cams just before Christmas and people are starting to use his cams. I will let Lloydz and/or KevinX explain the difference between the various cams.
HTH, Tim Happy New Year
Edited by TimS 2009-01-05 2:22 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | since you mentioned warranty. if you do the cams you might as well forget that warranty. even if they are victory cams. cause they arent victory cams for the vision.. even know they are for a 106 engine. but try explain your claim to victory and see what they say.. If you cracked your engine and put a part there that wasnt made for that bike you can bet you would have to fight if the time came for a warranty claim. basically id say to Read your warranty. i bough the extended warranty and i will say this. out of all the bikes i have owned victory is the only one that wants Proof of your oil changes. This is in the paperwork for my victory extended warranty. That just shown me if your engine has a issue with something major they WILL be checking your paperwork! just my 2cents. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 935
Rockford, IL | Arkainzeye - 2009-01-05 7:06 PM since you mentioned warranty. if you do the cams you might as well forget that warranty. even if they are victory cams. cause they arent victory cams for the vision.. even know they are for a 106 engine. but try explain your claim to victory and see what they say.. If you cracked your engine and put a part there that wasnt made for that bike you can bet you would have to fight if the time came for a warranty claim. basically id say to Read your warranty. i bough the extended warranty and i will say this. out of all the bikes i have owned victory is the only one that wants Proof of your oil changes. This is in the paperwork for my victory extended warranty. That just shown me if your engine has a issue with something major they WILL be checking your paperwork! just my 2cents. You might want to do some research on the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. In a nutshell.....if you install cams and something else goes wrong the burden is ON THE DEALER to show that the cams caused some type of a failure with whatever went wrong. Meaning if you install cams and something goes wrong with your crankshaft the dealer HAS to to either honor the warranty and take care of the crankshaft or they have to PROVE the cams caused the crankshaft problem. Since this burden of proof is on the dealer and not the consumer there is no "fight" or anything needed. Do the research and you will understand what I'm saying p.s. don't mean to hijack the thread
Edited by Lotzafun 2009-01-05 9:14 PM
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Tourer
Posts: 374
Tucson, AZ | I fully understand Magnuson-Moss deal. I went round and round with the other American motorcycle dealership in 2004 and was treated like an idiot. After 7 months of B.S. and 6 trips in for service i had had enough. Fortunately for me a riding bud is an attorney and things went well after that. This was even on parts the dealer installed. But when cams are put in and the neck bearing go bad there really is no relationship....long story short, my Vic dealer is great to work with and told me to do the research as to which cams i wanted. He also told me it was the dealers first priorty to back up their work. I was just looking for the difference in cams. Thanks to all who replied.
mike |
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Visionary
Posts: 3773
Pittsburgh, PA | The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act states that a warranty can NOT be denied IF the dealer provides the "parts" you need FREE of charge.. Example oil changes. if the dealer or maker of what ever you own provides FREE oil changes with free labor and you don't use it and you have a warranty engine failure claim. NOW you will have a fight on your hands. If you read the entire act it states this. The Act is NOT!! For add high performance parts!! lol not even close. its for maintence related items. Items you need in order to maintain your car ,truck,motorcycle.. I think people need to actually read this act. Its not a crutch for doing whatever you want to your bike and having a get out of jail free card when your motorcycle fails on you.. Oh here is a perfect example. On this forum this is a guy that has a Vulcan 2000. with a aftermarket intake. His engine started using oil very badly, it was determined that the engine needed a rebuild! Well kaw denied the warranty because of a aftermarket intake. It was that simple. They claimed the aftermarket intake didn't seal properly and let in dirty which caused the rings to wear. But yet others with the same bike needed a rebuild also and they had stock intakes.. But still the warranty was denied. And was legally allowed to do so… Once again Read the act.. its not for performance parts. Its for REPLACEMENT parts..
Under this federal statute, a manufacturer, who issues a warranty on your motor vehicle, is prohibited from requiring you to use a particular brand of air filter, oil filter, or other service or maintenance item, unless such item is provided, free of charge, under your warranty or unless the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) waives this prohibition against the manufacturer.
Edited by Arkainzeye 2009-01-06 9:07 AM
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Vision Cam Dyno RESULTS
