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Tourer
Posts: 411
Dallas, Texas | Riverdawg - 2011-09-13 1:30 PM
I have never posted on any of these oil discussions since I find them boring. This is what I have to say about synthetic oils: Synthetic Oil = Paulov Dogs = Placebo Effective. I have to ask the question. Do those that swear by synthetic oil in their engine think they really know better than the engineers that designed and built the vic engines. If you do then go apply to vic but you better have a mechinical engineering degree. If vic and their engineers knew that the engines would run better and wear better with synthetic, then don't you think that is what they would require to put in them?? You put synthetic in because someone on this site says its better which they heard from some wrench that swears by it. Thus you use it and you tell your brain that all is smoother and better - the placebo effect. Also as a marketing ploy it would be better for vic to sell full synthetic, the margin in the price would be greater than semi however they do no do that because vic knows what works best.
This is nothing more than my opinion. If you feel better with full syn use it! For me I will trust those that built and designed the motors.
Not that I think full syn is the end all of oil, for out there for our Vics. But knowing what I know about Corporate style decisions, I really seriously doubt that there was a technicians and engineers meetings where they came up with a special oil formula just for the Vic engine, and then got an oil company to manufacture it to that specificiation. More than likely, they had a minimum standard for oil and shopped for the cheapest supplier/manufacturer to provide it. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 273
Midlothian, Va. | iluvink - 2011-09-13 6:00 PM Not that I think full syn is the end all of oil, for out there for our Vics. But knowing what I know about Corporate style decisions, I really seriously doubt that there was a technicians and engineers meetings where they came up with a special oil formula just for the Vic engine, and then got an oil company to manufacture it to that specificiation. More than likely, they had a minimum standard for oil and shopped for the cheapest supplier/manufacturer to provide it.Ding Ding we have a winner
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New user
Posts: 2
| Hello Everyone,
I am a newbie to Victory and your Forum, after riding all types of Bikes for 40 years. (makes me feel old just saying that)
My question is my Victory Manual states oil requirements are: JASO MA 20W40 suitable for wet clutch
I noticed on the Amsol site (under MC Oil) my options were 20w50 and 10W40, have any of you found a Amsol that directly meets the 20W40 requirement? If not then what do you use?
I believe staying as close to what the manual says may help if I ever encounter a warrantty issue, am I being to anal?
Thanks for the help, Jeff |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1117
Northeast Ohio | Welcome, Jeff! Please update your profile / signature with the model year of your bike and location (if you wouldn't mind). It will help us to understand you more. 
I think you will find folks running the Victory Semi-Syn 20W40, Shell Rotella-T (blue jug) 5W40 and Amsoil 10W40 with little or any issues. Victory will tell you that your gear indicator might not work correctly if you don't use their oil (not joking). |
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Cruiser
Posts: 208
Wichita, Kansas | OK. Here we go again. I AM an engineer for a major defense contractor. Aircraft are a lot more sensitive and critical than motorcycles, and I can tell you what engineers do. We find the most cost effective part which will meet the specification and create the best profit margin/warranty ratio. Aircraft engines switched to synthetics over 20 years ago because of their superiority, and they run 100,000 RPM and 1,500 degrees.
My cohorts in automotive do the same thing. The name of the game is cost containment and profit. You won't sell a product that costs too much. Kia could make a 250,000 mile car, but it would cost $50,000. You use what gives the minimum acceptable results at the best price.
The bottom line is that the semi-syn is pretty good stuff, will not hurt your engine, and your engine will last a long time. The synthetic is just a little better, but more expensive. Your call as long as the oil you choose is certified to the proper spec.
As for the synthetic, go look at the history of the 1991 corvette when they switched from the L98 engine to the LT1. The radiator would not take the extra heat from the more powerful engine, and GM didn't want the expense of a larger radiator redesign or an oil cooler, so they switched from dino to Mobil 1. That allowed them to to keep the existing cooling system since the Mobil 1 made the engine run cooler and stay within spec.
That said, either quote an engineer, give the site where you Google'd your info, or state that this is just your layman's opinion.
The flaming may now continue. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 752
Broken Arrow, OK | OH yeah? Well I have an uncle whose former boss was the brother of guy who dated a gal whose dad knew a ...........................I like amsoil 20/50. Always have, always will. Laymans opinion, been running it for over 25 years. I let my dealer do the 500 mile breakin/oil change/service and drained their oil when the speedo hit 2K, adding my amsoil and Wix filter and will continue to do this every 5K until I no longer own the bike. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 208
Wichita, Kansas | Okie - Based on my own engineering experience and the observation of data gathered by other engineers whose abilities I respect, I can find no fault with your plan. That is, I agree. |
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Tourer
Posts: 411
Dallas, Texas | Yea, but does aircraft's or Corvette's clutch slip when using full syn? |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | iluvink - 2011-09-16 10:20 PM
Yea, but does aircraft's or Corvette's clutch slip when using full syn?
Does your Victory's? Neither of mine slip with synthetic oil. I've used synthetic oil in bikes for many years, with no slipping clutch issues, including the full-on drag bikes I used to race. Some folks have blamed clutch problems on synthetic oil use, only to find out later that they had a mechanical issue that had nothing to do with the type of oil used. Yet, the myth persists, perpetuated by the rumor mill.
Ronnie |
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Visionary
Posts: 8144
New Bohemia, VA | rdbudd - 2011-09-17 11:34 AM
iluvink - 2011-09-16 10:20 PM
Yea, but does aircraft's or Corvette's clutch slip when using full syn?
Does your Victory's? Neither of mine slip with synthetic oil. I've used synthetic oil in bikes for many years, with no slipping clutch issues, including the full-on drag bikes I used to race. Some folks have blamed clutch problems on synthetic oil use, only to find out later that they had a mechanical issue that had nothing to do with the type of oil used. Yet, the myth persists, perpetuated by the rumor mill.
Ronnie
There are some dealer technicians that will swear that synthetic oil will cause the clutch to slip if you ride hard, not so much if you take it easy. Also, I believe, but can never prove it, is folk will put in some funky additive that will destroy the clutch, even if you change the oil right away. Once it hits the clutch, it will eat away until it is gone. So, instead of blaming their ignorance, they'll blame something else. Also, dino, and mixed syn-dino is cheaper, so that also gives them the excuse to say that syn oil ruined their clutch. Strictly speculation. Also, I'm not directing this toward anyone who has had a mechnical problem or even a defective clutch. I've run synthetic and even switched up without any ill affects for the past 20 oil changes or so.
Edited by varyder 2011-09-17 11:11 AM
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | Riverdawg - 2011-09-13 1:30 PM
I have never posted on any of these oil discussions since I find them boring. This is what I have to say about synthetic oils: Synthetic Oil = Paulov Dogs = Placebo Effective. I have to ask the question. Do those that swear by synthetic oil in their engine think they really know better than the engineers that designed and built the vic engines. If you do then go apply to vic but you better have a mechinical engineering degree. If vic and their engineers knew that the engines would run better and wear better with synthetic, then don't you think that is what they would require to put in them?? You put synthetic in because someone on this site says its better which they heard from some wrench that swears by it. Thus you use it and you tell your brain that all is smoother and better - the placebo effect. Also as a marketing ploy it would be better for vic to sell full synthetic, the margin in the price would be greater than semi however they do no do that because vic knows what works best.
This is nothing more than my opinion. If you feel better with full syn use it! For me I will trust those that built and designed the motors.
You could be right.
OR
Some of us started riding Victory motorcycles 11 or 12 years ago, the year 2000 in my case. If you've been around Victory bikes very long, you know that some early Victory owners had transmission issues with their bikes. Practically everyone, including me, used the recommended Victory oil in their bikes. The recommended oil change interval was 2500 miles. Everybody was complaining about clunky transmissions, "notchy shifting", and difficulty finding neutral. The consensus was that everybody was seeing these issues after the bikes had about 2000 miles on the oil. The early bikes today have a reputation for "bad trannies", even though there are many who have never had a transmission problem.
Many of the owners who experienced transmission problems said things like "I've always changed oil religiously and only used Victory oil and filters". They were convinced that Victory had bad transmissions across the board. Victory said that there was nothing wrong with their transmissions. People were pissed. The brand suffered. To this day, the early bikes have a bad reputation. Popular opinion is that ALL early Victory bikes will suffer a transmission failure. I don't believe it. Mine's still fine, as are many others. I think it was a lubrication problem, and here's why.
Some of us reasoned that there was nothing we could do to the transmission design, but we could try a different lubricant. My records show that I started trying different oils at 8616 miles on my bike. I tried a couple of different oils, including Mobile 1, before trying Amsoil. The results on the other oils were about the same as with the Victory oil, that is, the shifting got "notchy" and neutral became difficult to find after the oil had about 2000 miles on it. I continued to change at 2500 miles. I was starting to wonder if maybe I would have transmission trouble too, someday. It was a new brand of bike and all, maybe they didn't have their act together............
Then I tried the Amsoil. As soon as I put it in, the bike shifted smoother. Furthermore, it was still shifting great at 2000 miles, then 2500 miles. I started stretching out the change intervals, finally going to 5000 miles. With 5000 miles on the Amsoil, the bike still shifts good and neutral comes easily. I switched to the Amsoil in 2003, and my bike has never had any transmission OR clutch slipping problems, even though I've managed to break two drive belts when racing the bike.
Undeniably, the newer Victory bikes have much improved transmissions when compared to the older bikes, but until they incorporated a neutral finder into their transmissions, they still recommended 2500 mile oil changes and their specified oil.
I've been using Amsoil in my Victory bikes for many years now, including my Vision. I recently changed my Vision back over to Victory oil because I had it on hand, left over from when I was a "true believer" and decided to use it up. My Vision immediately became noisier, the shifting soon became "notchy", and neutral became illusive as soon as I started riding the bike with the Victory oil in it. I changed it back out to Amsoil after I had about 2000 miles on the Victory oil, and everything went back to normal, smooth shifting and easy to find neutral. I'll run it 5000 miles like I've done for years.
I'm no engineer. I have proved to myself that the Victory oil is far inferior to Amsoil, and I suspect it was a contributing factor in the early transmission trouble saga.
I don't think the engineers ordered the oil. I think the bean counters did.
Victory bikes are some of the best on the planet. BUT, Victory oil sucks. Run it in your bike at your own risk, and change it OFTEN.
Ronnie
PS. I'm also a trucker by profession. I became interested in synthetic oils after the trucking fleets did comparative testing using synthetic oil, and ended up doubling the service intervals after switching to synthetic oils and driveline lubricants. The petroleum lubes break down with use. The synthetics last (and continue to lubricate) MUCH longer than the petroleum based stuff. It's cheaper to use in the long run, (longer service intervals, less equipment wear) which is the real reason the trucking fleets switched to it.
Edited by rdbudd 2011-09-17 11:32 AM
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Visionary
Posts: 4278
| I race every harley I get the chance to and no prob limo 10w40 amsoil If you want to read about oil here you go. You'll find 10w40 is just as good as 20w50 but less harm is done to your motor at start up. Slippage is more in the rider then the oil.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/
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NOT another oil thread.
