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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | DrJohn, I've not taken the time or spent the money to put my bike on a dyno, so I can't give you dyno numbers. I have had my bike on the dragstrip, which is a far better "dyno test" than any dyno anyway.
My bike has the cams, a Lloydz VFCIII, and a Lloydz old style top filter. The exhaust system is totally stock, as is the front air filter. After doing those mods, I quickly realized that I needed the rev-limiter raised because the bike was still pulling HARD when it smacked into the stock 5500 limiter. To that end, I added a Lloydz reprogrammed ECU, which I highly recommend. Since you've already installed a PCV, you can get the download to raise the rev-limiter to do pretty much the same thing.
The performance of any bike or car is not determined by the peak HP or peak TQ numbers. It is dependent on the height and width of the TORQUE CURVE. A high peak number doesn't do you as much good if it only occurs in a narrow RPM band (typical for Harley builds).
As I've already mentioned, the GL1800 Goldwing generally dynos at about 95/96 HP and 103/104 TQ. The torque curve of the GW goes above 100 ft/lbs from about 2700 RPM to about 5200 RPM. Peak HP occurs at about 5550 RPM.
The Vision, with cams, top filter, fuel controller, and rev-extended has a torque curve that goes above 100 ft/lbs from about 2700 RPM to about 5750 RPM. Peak HP occurs at around 5750/5850, BUT continues near the peak all the way past 6000 RPM. See why the rev-extend is so useful? The Vision potentially has a powerband that's easily 500 RPM wider than the highly vaunted GW's powerband. That is significant in a match up with a GW. The stock 5500 RPM limit on the Vision is a severe handicap after you've put the cams in.
My buddy and I went to the dragstrip after I did my mods. Before the mods, my Vision wasn't a very good match for his GW. He could generally beat me. After the mods:
My best run was a 12.69 @ 104.85 MPH to his best run of 12.91 @ 101.10 MPH.
The average of 5 runs had me at 12.84 @ 104.46 MPH to his average of 13.05 @ 100.47 MPH. The ending MPH is the significant indicator of horsepower. Obviously, my bike is making more power than his (his bike/rider combination weighs 30 pounds more than mine--not a substantial difference). I would estimate from these results that my bike is making somewhere between 105 to 110 HP.
Here's why the rev-extend makes such a difference http://www.vision-riders.com/bb/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=8212&pos...
My point is, get the top filter and the rev-extend and a proper tune, and there won't be many Goldwings or Harleys that can outrun you, unless you weigh 300 pounds.
Ronnie
Edited by rdbudd 2012-06-19 10:35 AM
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 10
Roseburg, OR | I've got the Vic L1S2 exhaust, high flow air - that plus the cam and Commander V - that's it |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 10
Roseburg, OR | This has been very helpful. Sounds like I should be happy with the 99+ HP and 105+ torque, and if I want more, add the top filter. Thanks for the input! |
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Visionary
Posts: 1228
Rancho Cucamonga, CA | One quick clarification...
If you have a PCV, Do you need a reprogrammed ECU to extend the RPM limit? |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1117
Northeast Ohio | @Nozzledog, no you don't. The PC-V raises the redline to 6000 rpm.
@DrJohn2, do you know what base map your mechanic loaded on the PC-V? |
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | Someone that actually has one will be along to confirm, but I've seen several references to getting a download from the PCV manufacturer that will allow a higher rev-limit. I am unsure whether this also overrides the 6th gear 120 MPH speed limiter of the stock ECU or not. I don't think it does, other than adding 500 RPM with the 6000 option turned on. I'm pretty sure you get an increase in gears 1 through 5. As I understand it, the rev-extend feature of the PCV allows a given amount of "overrun" over the stock ECU's settings. I've been told that getting the 1000 RPM rev-extend for the PCV allows 6250 in 1st, 6500 in 2nd through 5th, and 5550 in 6th. I believe they come with a 6000 RPM option that can be enabled, but you can request a higher limit. As I understand it, the 6000 option is actually a 500 RPM "overrun" over the stock ECU. You get 5750 in 1st gear, 6000 in gears 2 through 5 and 5050 in 6th gear. I do not have a PCV myself.
I've got a Lloydz VFCIII and a Lloydz reprogrammed ECU. His ECU has a better timing curve than stock at both the low end and up high, which is a map that Lloyd optimized for use with the VM1 cams, and it allows 6400 RPM in all 6 gears and eliminates the 120 MPH speed limiter for sure. For sure, Goldwings can only get to see my taillights if I wish. All the Harleys that have tried me got to see my taillights too.
Ronnie
Edited by rdbudd 2012-06-19 9:16 PM
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Visionary
Posts: 1632
Jasper, MO | DrJohn2 - 2012-06-19 7:47 PM
This has been very helpful. Sounds like I should be happy with the 99+ HP and 105+ torque, and if I want more, add the top filter. Thanks for the input!
You've already got a good torque number. The potential is definitely there. I think you just need a little more air (and maybe fuel, tuning) going in at the higher RPMs to get a higher horsepower number. 100 Ft/Lbs @ 5500 RPM will be 104.72 HP. You're probably at 94 or 95 Ft/Lbs @ the 5500 RPM cutoff right now--No?
Adding that top filter will move that up to 100+, and adding a rev-extend with it will extend that 100 Ft/Lbs to about 5700/5800 RPM. 100 FT/Lbs @ 5700 RPM = 108 HP, and @ 5800 RPM = 110 HP.
The goal isn't really to get a high peak HP number, but to get a wide and flat torque curve. HP is incidental to that, and derived from it. Folks put way too much emphasis on a high peak HP number alone.
Ronnie |
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Visionary
Posts: 1340
Gainesville Fl Home of the Gators | DrJohn2 - 2012-06-19 8:47 PM
This has been very helpful. Sounds like I should be happy with the 99+ HP and 105+ torque, and if I want more, add the top filter. Thanks for the input!
Ya know. I thought I was reading it; that you did not have a top filter. On just a basic S1 the top filter can easily make 7% gains in HP, and Tq. Makes a little more noise, but is well worth it |
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Cruiser
Posts: 77
| Dr John, Thank you SO MUCH for drawing so much attention to this post! I think we must have sold 50 sets of cams in the last couple days. Its truely amazing that they sell so well with me lieing about the gains that can be obtained.
It is also amazing that someone like yourself doesnt call to ask why your numbers arent were they should be and you air your feelings to the masses as appose to gaining factual information on why it isn't there.
Now typically when a Vision makes those number its because one of the cams is a tooth off in timing. Now there are also 2 other things it could be but My feelings are hurt so I'm going to go bury myself in a nice project.
LG |
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Tourer
Posts: 323
Troy, NY | Go Lloyd!!! My only regret of getting the CAMS, IUV, ECU...etc done is that I didn't do it sooooooooooner!!!!!!!!
This post has been great even though I have all the upgrades mentioned. It is interesting to see what other numbers people are getting. It is still interesting because I learned about the max number not meaning as much as the curve.
Thanks for all the post of this. It has been very informative. Ride safe and ride hard everyone!!
Edited by adirondacks 2012-06-20 5:40 PM
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Cruiser
Posts: 133
New Castle Delaware | Well Lloyd himself did my Vision a few months ago and I posted my dyno sheets on here. He got me to 120.85HP and 120.96ft.lbs.torque. He is the Wizard. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 162
Extreme Southern, AZ United States | I have th top filter and tho you can hear it, it did not make that much of a difference in noise level . Performance is better! |
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Cruiser
Posts: 132
New York | Ditto Lloyd on everything he said! Ive also posted my dyno numbers from Lloydz and I've been extremely happy with his work and his performance products! I recommend calling Lloyd before blasting his products on an open forum because Lloyd or one of his knowledgable staff associate I'm sure would be more than happy to help you dial your ride in to maximize performance! In the meantime, I'll keep recommending Lloyd and his products!! He has been extremely helpful to me and I am definitely a return customer!! And I'll visit Pine Bush NY again I assure you! |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1109
| I would have to agree, his products are outstanding. I only have his intake plate as I'm waiting on him to get more cams, on the waiting list. He's always been helpful, I only wish he was closer so I could have him install the cams. |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1109
| I'm considering installing autotune when I get the cams from Lloyd and was wondering if anyone has any thoughts. I would especially like to hear Lloyds and Kevinx's opinion. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 216
Danville, CA | I wud pay the $$ for a $400 dyno and not waste all that and auto tune it.. JMHO... |
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Iron Butt
Posts: 612
| kris1956 - 2012-06-21 12:29 PM
I'm considering installing autotune when I get the cams from Lloyd and was wondering if anyone has any thoughts. I would especially like to hear Lloyds and Kevinx's opinion.
Autotune is the way to go.... |
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Puddle Jumper
Posts: 18
| Recently had kevinx install VM1 cams, top breather and Autotune. Already had the PCV and S1L1 exhausts and air filter. Turk helped with a map and Autotune expertise. I haven't told my friends that I got the work done. They all ride HD's. I just laugh as I'm pulling away from them riding two up and them riding single. It's a noticeable difference, no matter what the dyno says. |
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Cruiser
Posts: 60
Vancouver, B.C. & La Quinta, CA | 119 HP with both air filters, Honkers, PCV, iac, Cams, ECM, etc. However, every dyno is different. Easy HP with Victory. My buddy has a super motor HD CVO with $75,000 in it that catch catch me. Go figure.
Edited by DAL 2012-06-23 12:04 AM
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Iron Butt
Posts: 1109
| Oakwood - 2012-06-22 5:14 PM Recently had kevinx install VM1 cams, top breather and Autotune. Already had the PCV and S1L1 exhausts and air filter. Turk helped with a map and Autotune expertise. I haven't told my friends that I got the work done. They all ride HD's. I just laugh as I'm pulling away from them riding two up and them riding single. It's a noticeable difference, no matter what the dyno says. I won't be telling my friends either. I have to laugh though when then cam their motors, claim 110+ hp only to be disappointed when they see the dyno results. |
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Lloydz cam
