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talexander
Posted 2014-01-01 2:23 PM (#150169)
Subject: Performance upgrade


Puddle Jumper

Posts: 14
Cedar Rapids, IA United States
Has anyone done just Llyodz Top filter & timing gear with good results?

I have 2013 Vision with 18K. I want to stay with the stock exhaust but give her a little more kick.

On my 2009 I had Atom Bombs & the Ness Twin Sucker Kit. The mufflers sounded good but I did not like the occasional backfire. It seemed to run ok other than black smoke on hard acceleration. Rode her to 60K in 3 years that way.

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adirondacks
Posted 2014-01-01 3:26 PM (#150170 - in reply to #150169)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Tourer

Posts: 323
Troy, NY
Fuel controller, either PCV or Lloydz VCIII, with top filter gives you the best bang for the buck. The timing wheel will increase the HP at the low end of RPMS. When I just got the filter and PCV the thing I noticed the most was the throttle response. It was a big improvement. If I got a new Vision, I would still get what I have on my bike now......Lloydz all around!!
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johnnyvision
Posted 2014-01-01 6:04 PM (#150173 - in reply to #150169)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Visionary

Posts: 4277
I have top filter wheel at +6 and S1L1 with 02's un hooked bike runs great and I'm around 44 mpg. Mileage changes with high temps and humidity.
I see no need for fuller I think the best thing to do is try the wheel its the best thing you can buy for your bike
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MaddMAx2u
Posted 2014-01-01 6:30 PM (#150174 - in reply to #150169)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Iron Butt

Posts: 877
Orlando, FL
I am not a mechanic. But I'm not sure there's a need for a top filter if you are not going to change exhaust. Think of a funnel. If I make the top bigger (adding a top air filter) but keep the bottom the same (exhaust) I really can't get more air thru. So if you keep the stock exhaust, do ya gain anything? Maybe if you put a few holes in the baffles, but otherwise.......?
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rdbudd
Posted 2014-01-02 11:07 AM (#150187 - in reply to #150174)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Visionary

Posts: 1611
Jasper, MO
MaddMAx2u - 2014-01-01 6:30 PM

I am not a mechanic. But I'm not sure there's a need for a top filter if you are not going to change exhaust. Think of a funnel. If I make the top bigger (adding a top air filter) but keep the bottom the same (exhaust) I really can't get more air thru. So if you keep the stock exhaust, do ya gain anything? Maybe if you put a few holes in the baffles, but otherwise.......?


The stock exhaust isn't restrictive on a NA Vision 106. It flows well enough to support 135HP 116 builds. Your assertion that "what goes in has to come out" is valid, but in the case of the Vision, the stock exhaust isn't a limiting factor, especially on a 106 motor. The "funnel outlet" can easily handle more air flow.

To the OP, you can do it, but gains will be relatively small, but noticeable. Changing the exhaust and expecting a power increase will be a waste of money and a disappointment, if more power is the goal. Change the exhaust for a different sound if you wish.

If more power is the goal, and the quiet of the stock exhuast doesn't bother you, money that would be spent on a different exhaust would be far better spent on LLoydz cams, a top filter, and a fuel controller. Those things alone will get you 105 to 110 HP at the rear wheel, up from your stock 80 or 85.

You can get into the 90 HP range with just tuning, but the stock cams begin to fade after 4500 RPM, no matter what else you do.

What kinds of power increases are you looking for, and in what riding conditions? Are you looking for more mid-range, more low end, more top end, or a combination of all three? You should have a goal in mind before you start spending money.


Ronnie

Edited by rdbudd 2014-01-02 11:13 AM
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ljurgens
Posted 2014-01-02 12:46 PM (#150188 - in reply to #150187)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Tourer

Posts: 341
West Salem, WI United States

Great reply rdbudd. 

For me with a new 13 VVT, I'm looking for smoother throttle response and a little more low end to mid range power (torque) and smoothness. I have no issue with the stock sound at this point.

From what I've read here, the easiest to do and lowest cost way to get there is to do these two things in this order:

1. Lloyds timing gear
2. Top filter 

 

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Street Eagle
Posted 2014-01-02 1:13 PM (#150190 - in reply to #150169)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Iron Butt

Posts: 691
Manchester, CT
+1 of rdbudd's input

When I was looking to buildout my 2013 Vision, I sat down with friend/Vic mechanic, to decide on what we wanted to accomplish. The decision was to build performance across the board which would humble unexpecting HD riders. I wasn't looking to build a bike that went against what the Vision is meant to be...another words if I wanted a crotch rocket then buy a 2nd bile. That's not to say that somewhere down the rode I may entertain a stroker kit.

One thing you may want to add to your list is a performance/K & N filter in place of the OEM filter.

I didn't dyno the stock setup but the results from the following setup dyno'd at 122 rwhp and 120 fl/lb

Perf filter
Witchdoctor Voodoo exhaust
Cams - 1st generation
Upper filter
Air Intake System and spacer
timing wheel
Dyno tuning at KMC Powersports - Kyle is awesome

Handling
Installed Vision 8 Ball spriings and cartridges
Lowered front and rear - 1"
1/4 throttle - highly recommended for any bike

Results - very strong running bike at any and all gears (turned 6th gear into a passing gear)
Outstanding response across rpm and mph

Note - timing gear was the last thing that we installed. I cured the low end torque loss and dramatically decreased detonation on decelleration

Dyno tuning also completely smoothed out engine performance. When decelerating at high speed it sounds like a turbine spinning down
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ljurgens
Posted 2014-01-02 1:33 PM (#150191 - in reply to #150190)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Tourer

Posts: 341
West Salem, WI United States

+1 Tom,

Two questions: 

1. To lower the Vision 1" both front and rear, you used the 8-ball shock and front fork cartridges? Anything else?

2. No fuel management changes?

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rdbudd
Posted 2014-01-02 3:49 PM (#150196 - in reply to #150188)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Visionary

Posts: 1611
Jasper, MO
ljurgens - 2014-01-02 12:46 PM

Great reply rdbudd.?

For me with a new 13 VVT, I'm looking for smoother throttle response and a little more low end to mid range power (torque) and smoothness. I have no issue with the stock sound at this point.

From what I've read here, the easiest to do and lowest cost way to get there is to do these two things in this order:

1. Lloyds timing gear
2. Top filter?

?



Not a bad place to start, and it may be all you need depending on your goals. Low end should be improved.

The Vision is set quite lean by the factory, probably to get by the EPA. A fuel controller gets around this.

In addition to the timing wheel and filter, you could just unplug the O2 sensors, which throws the ECU into a richer open loop. That may work for you, and is free to try. You can always plug them back in. Unplugging them will not cause any "error codes" or anthing. If using a fuel controller, you need to unplug the O2 sensors anyway so the ECU doesn't "fight with" the controller.

If you find you want even more mid-range, and especially top end power, you may someday want the cams. You'll get the best performance out of them if you have a fuel controller. To get everything the cams have to offer on the top end, you'll need to to increase your rev-limit to 6400 or 6500 RPM. The rev-limit increase isn't necessary to get the kind of power being talked about in this thread, but the stock rev-limiter causes you to shift at 5500 RPM when the cams are still pulling hard past 6000 RPM.

Why does this make a difference? Shifting at 5500 RPM means you can reach (1) 38 MPH, (2) 60 MPH, (3) 80 MPH, (4) 98 MPH, (5) 122 MPH. Shifting at 6000 RPM means you shift at (1) 42 MPH, (2) 66 MPH, (3) 87 MPH, (4) 107 MPH, (5) 133 MPH.

For comparison, the Goldwing shifted at 6000 RPM shifts at (1) 40 MPH, (2) 66 MPH, (3) 90 MPH, (4) 114 MPH, and is geared for 140 MPH in 5th.

With the stock 5500 rev-limit of the Vision, no matter how much HP you have, whether stock or cammed, the Goldwing can gain as much as 5 MPH more in 1st, 11MPH in 2nd, 17 MPH in 3rd, and 25 MPH in 4th over the Victory, simply due to the gearing and different rev-limiters, with both going to the rev-limiter in each gear. Horsepower has nothing to do with that difference. In relation to the GW, the stock 5500 RPM Vision rev-limit forces the Victory to be "short shifted" to the next higher gear while the GW is still winding out in a lower (harder accelerating) gear.

That gearing/rev-limit advantage of the Goldwing is erased when you raise the rev-limiter on the Vision to 6400.

For "normal" riding, none of that matters one little bit------unless somebody wants to race your Vision with his Goldwing. THEN, that rev-limiter matters a LOT.

To your question: the timing wheel is a good place to start. It may be all you need for your riding conditions. Then a top filter, and a richened up fuel delivery if you want more. Unplugging the o2 sensors may be enough to richen up the fueling if you're quitting right there, or you may want a fuel controller at this point. Then cams if you want---lots more. If you get cams--raise the rev-limit too, either with a 1000 RPM increase in a PCV program, or by having Lloyd reprogram your ECU. (I'm using a VFCIII and Lloydz ECU with Lloydz cams and top filter and a stock exhaust--that's it--and it outruns GWs, looks and sounds stock, and gets fuel mileage slightly better than the GW when on trips).

If using Lloydz cams, the stock 5500 rev-limit cuts you off far short of the potential, and the bike will pull up to 5500 hard and fast. I mean it just SLAMS into the 5500 RPM limit.

If using stock cams, the increased rev-limit won't gain you much of anything at all--the stock cams are too EPA compliant, and don't continue to make increasing power at higher RPMs, and begin fading after 4500, and the bike just sneaks up on the 5500 rev-limit slowly.

If you aren't in the habit of flogging through the gears and don't ever go over 4500 RPM, you don't need the cams.

If you get the cams, the bike will perform nearly the same below 4500 (especially if you get Lloydz ECU, or get the timing wheel) as the stock cams, but get MUCH stronger over 4500 to past 6000 RPM.

Ronnie

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willtill
Posted 2014-01-02 5:09 PM (#150199 - in reply to #150169)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Visionary

Posts: 1365
Central Maryland
rdbudd,

thanks for the comprehensive info on the performance of the aftermarket cams... we get bombarded on how you need those cams... but for how you described their usefulness/performance; I'm good to go just with the Dobeck fueler, timing wheel and top end filter.

No need to "whine out" the Vision. I've got another monster motorcycle just for that. :-)
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rdbudd
Posted 2014-01-02 7:22 PM (#150201 - in reply to #150199)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Visionary

Posts: 1611
Jasper, MO
willtill - 2014-01-02 5:09 PM

rdbudd,

thanks for the comprehensive info on the performance of the aftermarket cams... we get bombarded on how you need those cams... but for how you described their usefulness/performance; I'm good to go just with the Dobeck fueler, timing wheel and top end filter.

No need to "whine out" the Vision. I've got another monster motorcycle just for that. :-)


You're welcome sir. I'm still remembering the test rides I took on an R3. Darn near bought one. Might still, someday.

In my particular circle of friends, we are all aging crotch rocket riders, and several of us had dedicated track bikes for many years. I built mine and helped build some of the others. We are all performance oriented, and even though we have "graduated" to luxury touring bikes, the competitive spirit lives on and the GW guys insisted on challenging my Vision nearly every time we rode. They had the advantage in a drag race (darned rev-limiter) by about 1/3 to 1/4 second and 2 MPH, and the roll-ons in 5th gear were basically even up to 100 MPH, as long as we started at 45 MPH or above. They had a slight top end advantage (darn speed limiter).

Now, the tables are turned all the way around in every category. The Vision outclasses the Goldwings in performance, by a small amount. But, we still play from time to time. The bikes are still close enough in performance for the challenges/races to be fun (I could do more to get even more power, but I'm happy where it is). Keeps the juices flowing. A little impromptu "racing" every now and then while on a long trip breaks up the boredom that long straight roads can cause.

We've been challenged by total strangers on Harleys, while cruising down the road, a few times. We accept, and everybody has fun. Some of those Harleys run pretty good. We've had some laughs and made new friends that way. We've never been challenged by a stranger on a Goldwing. We have been challenged by kids in their tuner import cars that have those obnoxious fart tubes on them. We've surprised a few of them too.

Those folks who never accept a challenge from a fast Harley or a Goldwing don't need the cams in their Vision or Cross Country.

We don't go around picking on sport bikes. There wouldn't be much point in that, and the race wouldn't be much fun. It's only fun when the machines are close in performance. Kind of like a ball game. A game that ends up with a score of 20 to 18 is a lot more fun for everybody than one that ends up with a score of 50 to 2.

Ronnie

Edited by rdbudd 2014-01-02 7:43 PM
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Street Eagle
Posted 2014-01-02 10:01 PM (#150207 - in reply to #150169)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Iron Butt

Posts: 691
Manchester, CT
Geez...how could I forget the PCV ... duh

Regarding lowering the bike.
New link for the rear and the spacers in the forks were cut down an inch. The 8 ball cartridges and springs really improved the handling characteristics. The bike is more nimble and makes the front end feel smaller in comparison to the OEM setup
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talexander
Posted 2014-01-03 3:14 PM (#150225 - in reply to #150169)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Puddle Jumper

Posts: 14
Cedar Rapids, IA United States
Great replies rdbudd! I am a mechanic & do know there is not a thing wrong with the stock Vision exhaust!

I may just try the timing gear & top filter with the O2 sensors unplugged - I can always add a fuel controller if needed.

I am not going as far as doing cams - I will probably trade for another Vision when I reach 60K which will only be 2 more riding seasons.
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Tims_11Vision
Posted 2014-01-06 12:38 PM (#150295 - in reply to #150225)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Cruiser

Posts: 143
Lexington Park, MD
talexander - 2014-01-03 4:14 PM

Great replies rdbudd! I am a mechanic & do know there is not a thing wrong with the stock Vision exhaust!

I may just try the timing gear & top filter with the O2 sensors unplugged - I can always add a fuel controller if needed.

I am not going as far as doing cams - I will probably trade for another Vision when I reach 60K which will only be 2 more riding seasons.


Talexander, you don't have to go the cam route to create a VisionBeast nor break the bank. What I may have missed here or didnt see mentioned was the Adjustable Intake (for us Visionaries only) which DOES make a difference and dyno. Yes the auto-tune folks may like that route, the dyno is my preference.
As long as your fine with the sound of your exhaust stick with it or if you want, look up drilling it here which is quite when you need it and nice sound when you slam it. My opion only, not gospel. Here is what I did with mine and while my 17year old inner self would like the cams, their not needed. I get great power in my cruise range of 2800-3200 and I pick the spot I want to be then theVision is there. Im a daily commutter with ALOT of interstate traffic so cruise torque was improtant to me. Take a look, you might like it!!!

My visit to Loydz:
What I had going in:
Ness Big Honkers - Lloyd said will cost you a little on lower end
Upper 2nd fliter - First thing I added to bike
Performance Front filter - May not have needed it but...
ATS wheel set at +5
Dunlop CT mud/snow run flat - Definitely costing me some top end HP
VFC-III

What I had done to get to this dyno sheet:
PCV
Lloyds Adjustable Intake
1/4 turn throttle ring
Dyno tuned

My goal was low end torque, not get into the motor more than the ATS and keep my decent MPG. What I got was a friggin well tuned torque on demand monster! You hit it, it is there and I love it! Best part is staying at 1K to do this part of the mods. The dyno was very interesting as I seen as much as a 15% difference between the front and rear cans fuel requirements... I was shocked! The bike behaves just like you would want, got the front end off the ground twice during the post mod ride. Did not expect that. Bottom line, you better hang on. While my HP curve is lower than hoped, im fairly convinced my CT is eating some of that up but look at where she is coming in on her torque and that is what I was after. You don't have time to look at the tach before it hits. The sound of the engine and exhaust changed dramatically, sounds friggin NASCAR now! lmao. Im happy is about all I can say. Will I do the cams or do I have regrets? Nope. The money saved is going into the TC.

Bottom line, those that are nervous about getting inside the motor to do cams or on more of a budget, you have an option!





(2011VisionDyno.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments 2011VisionDyno.jpg (36KB - 13 downloads)
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rdbudd
Posted 2014-01-06 4:12 PM (#150300 - in reply to #150295)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Visionary

Posts: 1611
Jasper, MO
That is a great looking chart Tim, and reflects the performance of the stock cams. As I've said before, the stock cams start dropping off after 4000 RPM and are done by 4500 RPM. They are what is holding your HP down. As I've also said before, if you aren't in the habit of going over 4500 RPM, you don't need to change cams. And, as I've said before, tuning can get you into the 90s.

However, had you spent the money for the Big Honkers on a set of Lloydz cams instead, and retained the stock exhaust, your torque chart would look about like it does now up to about 3500 RPM, but then it would stay nearly flat all the way to 5700-5800 RPM, instead of dropping off the way it does now. Horsepower would necessarily go up with it, probably to about 115 to 120 HP. The best of both worlds--torque and HP.

In terms of cruise torque, the VM1 cams would act just about like the stock ones you've got now, but when you hit the throttle in 5th gear at 55 MPH to merge into traffic, the VM1 cams just keep on pulling as hard at 5500 RPM as at 3000 RPM. The stock ones are fading away after 3500 RPM. With the stock cams, in 5th gear, you get a burst of power at 55 MPH that lasts until 75 or 80 MPH, then they begin to fade. If you had the Lloydz cams with your setup, the burst of power would still start at 55 MPH, but the bike would still be pulling just as hard at 110 MPH.

There is no right or wrong. It all depends on what a person wants out of their bike.

For someone starting out with modifications, set a goal before you open your wallet.

Ronnie
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Tims_11Vision
Posted 2014-01-06 5:52 PM (#150304 - in reply to #150300)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Cruiser

Posts: 143
Lexington Park, MD
Good points Ronnie and I did look at the dynos on my options (which you laid out very well) and after consulting Lloyd went with this configuration. We discussed my style and broke down the Torque/HP from the dynographs, discussed costs of each and then is was simply decision time. If you look at where that 114 came in at, it actaully suited me better dropping the cams from my install and going for the adjustable intake. Funny I hear so little about it but what a punch it packs. Very good advice about setting a goal AND budget before opening the wallet and commencing the Mods.

For me, it was two things. One budget of course and two HOW did I want the bike to sound. I had stock pipes, HATED that sound then I did the drill and they got better. But the sound I was after was the honkers. You can't get that sound out of your mind (or mine anyway). And I was able to stay within my budget getting the sound and response I was after.

Agreed there is no wrong way to go as long as you know what your after in the end and put a plan together before you start. I posted this not to say I can do just was well as a bike with CAMS but for those that don't want to break into the motor and make that mod. My buddy on and XCT had the tour cams installed and was making 125hp at 119 torque so we got to play coming back from lloydz.

I appreciate the guys like you that have laid this stuff out in the past and enabled me to get my plan together last year and by end of this summer have one heck of a ride!

Will there be a set of cams in the future for her??? Very possible but if I had did them already I would just be thinking about upgrading my exhaust... lol... Good post bud, hope some folks find the info useful!!!

Safe riding,
Tim
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talexander
Posted 2014-01-06 6:36 PM (#150305 - in reply to #150169)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Puddle Jumper

Posts: 14
Cedar Rapids, IA United States
Thanks guys! More to think about - I am in the habit of going over 4500 RPM =)
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johnnyvision
Posted 2014-01-06 6:43 PM (#150306 - in reply to #150169)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Visionary

Posts: 4277
Talk to Lloydz he has a new fuel tuner coming out that he feels is as good as the PCV if not better and its self tuning. Kevinx is testing right now
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rwilly
Posted 2014-01-06 6:58 PM (#150308 - in reply to #150169)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Tourer

Posts: 523
seattle, wa
Speaking of fuel tuners, I see that Protwin has one out also, it's only good for 2010 and up bikes.

http://protwin.com/freedomtuningsystemsstage1tuner.aspx
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rdbudd
Posted 2014-01-06 11:35 PM (#150318 - in reply to #150305)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Visionary

Posts: 1611
Jasper, MO
talexander - 2014-01-06 6:36 PM

Thanks guys! More to think about - I am in the habit of going over 4500 RPM =)


In that case, a set of Lloydz cams and a rev-limit increase are in order. They need to be fed, so a top filter and a fuel controller are in order. You'll be in the 105 to 115 range on both torque and horsepower with just those things running through the stock exhaust. Those numbers can be improved a bit, or the operating range moved a bit, with the adjustable intake and timing wheel.

The cams do lose a small amount of torque compared to the stock cams, but it's not a lost cause. It can be recovered in a variety of ways. One is Lloydz ECU reprogram, which has a better timing and fuel map than stock, in addition to the increased rev-limit (to 6400 in ALL gears). Another way is Lloydz adjustable timing wheel, which is widely reported to boost low end torque (I don't have that). In addition, Lloydz adjustable intake, like the one Tim is using, is good for boosting low end torque and mid-range. These can all be used together if you wish.

I have the Lloydz ECU and do NOT have the adjustable timing wheel (it came out later), but I've been watching it with interest. The adjustable timing wheel seems to be working best for most people with the recommended 4 degree advance. Lloydz ECU reprogram is reported to already add 2 degrees advance, and some of those who have it and then get the timing wheel have reported that another 4 degrees is too much and have set it back to 2 degrees. 2+2=4?

If I were to add anything else to my own bike, which has cams, top filter, ECU, and VFCIII, it would be the adjustable intake. It would improve the low end and mid range and maybe even the cruising fuel economy.

Tim, I agree that the Honkers sound great, and I'm not against running a moderately louder pipe. In my case, I have a loud bike, that sounds awesome, for the times when I want to hear the pipes roar (my 2000 SC), and that thing makes my ears ring and my head hurt after very many miles. I've even taken some fairly long trips on it. Those trips convinced me that I wanted my new Vision to remain as quiet as possible, since its primary purpose is long trips. Having come off a Goldwing, I knew the kind of power that I wanted in a touring bike, and I wanted it quiet. I've got it.


Talexander, decide what you want out of your bike, then call Lloydz, or Rylan at the Vic Shop, or KevinX at Polaris of Gainesville, and form a plan. Spend your money once and get it right the first time. If you are "in the habit of going over 4500 RPM", then forget about any of the factory Stage "X" stuff and go with Lloydz stuff. If you want to make more noise, the shops I mentioned can steer you in the right direction for pipes too. Pipes affect the torque curve (and not always for the best). Lloyd designed his cams to work with the stock pipes, and those aftermarket pipes that emulate the torque curve of the stock pipes.

Ronnie
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Nozzledog
Posted 2014-01-07 12:25 AM (#150319 - in reply to #150169)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Visionary

Posts: 1228
Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Tim, Ronnie, I'm a little confused. How does the Adjustable Air Intake work WITH the Lloydz 2nd Breather? Wouldn't one cancel out the other?

Edited by Nozzledog 2014-01-07 12:31 AM
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Tims_11Vision
Posted 2014-01-07 6:08 AM (#150325 - in reply to #150169)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Cruiser

Posts: 143
Lexington Park, MD
No problem Nozzledog, (and I am not motor head engineer) but as it was explained to me by Lloyd the velocity stack is improving the flow of the air as it is moved through stack by reducing venturi of the air flow, not the bulk volume of it. He used the water example for me to better understand as in 3/4" hose pushing water into 1/4" port created a jet coming out. Made perfect sense to me. The upper filter is SUPPOSED to provide all the air she needs but I still went with the performance up front just for grins. I seen a Dyno of my config without the adjustable intake and while good overal torque was achieved, it was not coming in as strong in the mid 2K rpm and did not hit 114. The 41mm is for stock cams and if I go up to tour I can swap out for the 46mm. I did not get a look at (or don't remember) a dyno sheet with my config AND the tour CAMS before/after the adjustable intake.

Adjustable Timing System (or wheel). One thing to point out concerning adjusting timing here over the ECU which is significant is that using the ATS to alter timing ALSO changes the fuel injection point. So while timing with the ECU of +2 and ATS+2 will give you a overall +4, your fuel injection point just advanced+2. So similar to using the PCV to change the timing, +2 in the PCV would ONLY change the fire point to while the ATS at +4 is giving me across the board fuel and fire. This is straight from Lloyd, no Tim "my interpretation".. lol...

Good thread, thanks for the inputs! Making us all smarter. One thing to note, if you go to the candy store (aka LLoydz) it is as much educational as it is performance improvement. I learned more about both my bikes that day then in a year on the forums. Strongly recommend a site visit during the riding months there or see Rylan, etc and see first hand how these performance folks are creating improved performance...

Edited by Tims_11Vision 2014-01-07 6:09 AM
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rdbudd
Posted 2014-01-07 10:45 AM (#150337 - in reply to #150319)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Visionary

Posts: 1611
Jasper, MO
Nozzledog - 2014-01-07 12:25 AM

Tim, Ronnie, I'm a little confused. How does the Adjustable Air Intake work WITH the Lloydz 2nd Breather? Wouldn't one cancel out the other?


Tim explained it well.


Ronnie
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talexander
Posted 2014-01-07 6:58 PM (#150354 - in reply to #150169)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Puddle Jumper

Posts: 14
Cedar Rapids, IA United States
Thanks again Rdbudd! I only live @ 1 1/2 hours from Rylan. I will probably do the work myself then take it over to have him dyno it. I am sticking with the stock pipes on this one. I ride @ 20K a year and as I get older I am enjoying the radio more than the exhaust noise =)
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rdbudd
Posted 2014-01-08 10:38 AM (#150364 - in reply to #150354)
Subject: Re: Performance upgrade


Visionary

Posts: 1611
Jasper, MO
talexander - 2014-01-07 6:58 PM

Thanks again Rdbudd! I only live @ 1 1/2 hours from Rylan. I will probably do the work myself then take it over to have him dyno it. I am sticking with the stock pipes on this one. I ride @ 20K a year and as I get older I am enjoying the radio more than the exhaust noise =)


You're welcome Sir.

Tim's bike and dyno chart is an excellent example of what can be accomplished with stock cams, and is also an excellent example of the limitation of the stock cams.

The fun is about over by 4500 RPM with the stock cams, but low end torque is great. Low end throttle response is very good. The 5th gear passing power punch is great, up to about 80-85 MPH. The fat part of the torque curve lasts about 2500 RPM. It makes for a fun bike for most riding situations.

The VM1 cams perform much like the stock cams below 4500 RPM, albeit with slightly less low end torque (maybe 106-110 instead of 114), BUT then they maintain that torque all the way out to 5700-5800 RPM before the curve starts to fall off. The VM1s continue to pull hard past 6000 RPM. The torque curve stays nearly level over a range of 3500 RPM. The fun lasts until 135+ MPH, if you have the speed limiter removed.

Here is a very early chart (not my bike, but I did the same mods) of a 2008 Vision with nothing more than a VFCIII, a top filter, the original VM1 cams, and stock exhaust. No timing wheel, no adjustable intake (those weren't on the market yet). Adding the timing wheel and the adjustable intake would bring those numbers below 4500 RPM up, and probably move the point the peak HP occurs back by about 500 RPM.

In "non-normal" riding situations, like flogging through the gears against a fast Harley or a Goldwing, and shifting at 6000 RPM, your bike is going to be operating in the 3800 to 6000 RPM range in the 1st to 2nd shift and 4800 to 6000 RPM range in the 3rd to 4th shift. If you're involved in a 1/4 mile race, you'll just be winding out in 4th at the finish line. With just the cams, VFCIII, and top filter, my bike walks away from GL1800s, with both in 5th gear, at any speed over 45 MPH.

The second chart is of a 2003 Goldwing, for comparison purposes.


Decide what you want out of your bike, then pick your bolt-on parts accordingly.

Ronnie

Edited by rdbudd 2014-01-08 11:07 AM




(Vision-Stk-Ex-VM1-VFC.jpg)



(03_GL1800.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments Vision-Stk-Ex-VM1-VFC.jpg (26KB - 4 downloads)
Attachments 03_GL1800.jpg (84KB - 1 downloads)
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